Which Champ has faced the toughest challengers? With MMAth

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bjj1605
10/23/12 2:52:44PM
So the point of this thread is to bring a little bit of objectivity to the P4P debate. Jon Jones, GSP, and Anderson Silva are all amazing champions. However, people disagree about which is truly the most dominant. One of the criteria people use to judge dominance is how tough the challengers have been. So, I came up with what I think is a good method of describing how tough the challenges have been. Lets start with a bit of back ground though.

It's very easy to look back at a guys record and pick it apart. People have done it with all time greats such as Fedor and Chuck Liddell. "They never fought anyone good" the haters say. Yet, none of their victories were sure things at the time. In most cases, at least SOME ONE was picking the challenger to beat the champion. So, I think the best way to judge the quality of a challenger is to look at how much of a perceived threat they were PRIOR TO THE FIGHT.

Luckily for me, the Playground stats enable me to do that. This site is populated by some of the most well informed fans in all of MMA and we all try to pick the winners of fights. So the percentage of people picking the challenger should tell you something about how much of a threat the challenger is perceived to be prior to the fight. If you average the scores of each title defense it should give you a number reflecting the TOTAL THREAT level of a champions title challengers. That's what I do here:

1) Anderson Silva:

27+12+28+17+5+4+7+44+28+23= 195
195/10=19.5
Challenger Score of 19.5

2) George St. Pierre:

10+33+19+7+10+11=90
90/6=15
Challenger Score of 15

3) Jon Jones

20+17+18+10= 65
65/4=16.25
Challenger Score of 16.25

Looking at these basic results it looks like Anderson has face the toughest challengers. But there's a possible problem with my method. As time goes on, it's going to be harder to find good challengers for the champion. More importantly, as people perceive the champ to be more dominant over time, they become less likely to pick the challenger. So the best way to compare these three guys is to compare their first four title defenses since Jones has only had four. Here's the revised numbers.

Anderson: 25.5 GSP: 17.25 Jon Jones: 16.25

These numbers are even better for Anderson than the original results. They also improve GSP's ranking. Finally, Jon Jones has faced the lowest threat level from his challengers so far and I expect the challengers to get worse not better from here on out.

What these numbers don't tell us

These numbers tell us nothing about dominance. Anderson and Jones have both finished many more of their challengers than has GSP.

These numbers tell us nothing about STYLISTIC challenges. Everyone likes to say, styles make fights. These numbers tell us how much of a threat the challenger was but not exactly what kind of challenge they posed.

These numbers tell us nothing about the champs threat perception. We all thought Dan Henderson was Anderson's toughest challenger but for all we know he could have felt most threatened by Demian Maia. You could argue that what the champ feels is the important thing.

These numbers tell us nothing about insider perception. Guys with the inside scoop on MMA fighters, the ones with information about injuries, training camps, ect. are probably the best judge of threat level. What do we all know anyway?

These numbers do not tell us who the P4P best fighter is. For that you would also have to look at dominace as well as overall number of title defenses.

What do you guys think?
airkerma
10/23/12 3:08:44PM
Super cool
It's a very interesting approach to analyzing these fighters.
tcunningham
10/23/12 5:38:33PM
every time i start comparing these three champions to re-evaluate my P4P choices i keep coming up with the same answer..... Silva is and has been P4P the best champion.

this is an interesting way of looking at it, i think the biggest reason that silva wins this competition is because he has been a dominant champion for much longer than the other two fighters. he came first and has beaten everybody there was to beat in the MW div so far. nothing is saying that GSP or jones cant break silvas records as a champion in the future, they just havent done it yet.
kingsmasher
10/23/12 6:24:48PM
Ridiculous stats IMO....regardless of what anyone might think even the stats from this site were obviously made by humans....

Jon Jones has faced the most well rounded fighters that are better #1 contenders than anyone else period...

Didnt someone do it here or it was somehere that actually had Matt Hughes as the best champion ever?

I still to this day think Silvas title fights are a joke....

If Silva beats Weidman I will give him the nod....


Who was Andersons best # 1 contender? Chael....he failed a drug test and still IMO he lost that Bisping fight but off course the judges gave it to him for another fight with Silva....surprise there...

Man in stead of people clamoring how great Silva is they should clamor for him to fight Weidman....basically the only well rounded guy he has EVER fought...

Jones has flat out killed guys that he BEAT in there area of expertise....Silva has faced "Chael on drugs" subbed him without one little bruise from being on bottom...

Silva was scared to go to the ground with Maia and Leites...They begged him...

Jon Jones has beaten BJJ guys in there game and strikers in there game...

This is just a case of hating on Jon Jones...
SpiderSilva
10/23/12 6:48:28PM

Posted by kingsmasher

Ridiculous stats IMO....regardless of what anyone might think even the stats from this site were obviously made by humans....

Jon Jones has faced the most well rounded fighters that are better #1 contenders than anyone else period...

Didnt someone do it here or it was somehere that actually had Matt Hughes as the best champion ever?

I still to this day think Silvas title fights are a joke....

If Silva beats Weidman I will give him the nod....


Who was Andersons best # 1 contender? Chael....he failed a drug test and still IMO he lost that Bisping fight but off course the judges gave it to him for another fight with Silva....surprise there...

Man in stead of people clamoring how great Silva is they should clamor for him to fight Weidman....basically the only well rounded guy he has EVER fought...

Jones has flat out killed guys that he BEAT in there area of expertise....Silva has faced "Chael on drugs" subbed him without one little bruise from being on bottom...

Silva was scared to go to the ground with Maia and Leites...They begged him...

Jon Jones has beaten BJJ guys in there game and strikers in there game...

This is just a case of hating on Jon Jones...

Bubbles
10/23/12 7:19:17PM

Posted by kingsmasher

Ridiculous stats IMO....regardless of what anyone might think even the stats from this site were obviously made by humans....

Jon Jones has faced the most well rounded fighters that are better #1 contenders than anyone else period...

Didnt someone do it here or it was somehere that actually had Matt Hughes as the best champion ever?

I still to this day think Silvas title fights are a joke....

If Silva beats Weidman I will give him the nod....

Who was Andersons best # 1 contender? Chael....he failed a drug test and still IMO he lost that Bisping fight but off course the judges gave it to him for another fight with Silva....surprise there...

Man in stead of people clamoring how great Silva is they should clamor for him to fight Weidman....basically the only well rounded guy he has EVER fought...

Jones has flat out killed guys that he BEAT in there area of expertise....Silva has faced "Chael on drugs" subbed him without one little bruise from being on bottom...

Silva was scared to go to the ground with Maia and Leites...They begged him...

Jon Jones has beaten BJJ guys in there game and strikers in there game...

This is just a case of hating on Jon Jones...


there is so much facepalming, I might have given myself a concussion

Jones' victories were not all against "the most well rounded fighters." Rampage is a pure boxer these days, Shogun and Machida are primarily strikers who virtually never try for takedowns. Vitor as well, but he was fighting with a broken hand to he had to pull guard. Evans might be the the exception but Franklin is far more well-rounded than Evans is. Jones has yet to fight a "BJJ guy", he's only gone against guys who have good BJJ but are strikers first and foremost. If Magalhaes gets a title shot and loses, then you are correct.

I hate Anderson more than the next guy, but what has Weidman done to say that Silva MUST beat him to be credible? As big of a Hail Mary triangle and Sonnen's backfist brainfart were, those are still valuable wins against the #2 MW in the world. He beat Bisping that night, judges or not...and I'm a Bisping fan. Yes Weidman is the defacto #1 contender, but that's all he is.

The only thing Jones has over Silva is beating his opponents at their game. He did pick apart Shogun, and Rampage standing...Evans too I guess as he doesn't use his wrestling much anymore. Vitor is a wash for both fighters. Machida lost from the clinch which isn't his strength. Silva only wants to strike with all of his opponents, regardless of background
jjeans
10/23/12 7:47:48PM

Posted by Bubbles


Posted by kingsmasher

Ridiculous stats IMO....regardless of what anyone might think even the stats from this site were obviously made by humans....

Jon Jones has faced the most well rounded fighters that are better #1 contenders than anyone else period...

Didnt someone do it here or it was somehere that actually had Matt Hughes as the best champion ever?

I still to this day think Silvas title fights are a joke....

If Silva beats Weidman I will give him the nod....

Who was Andersons best # 1 contender? Chael....he failed a drug test and still IMO he lost that Bisping fight but off course the judges gave it to him for another fight with Silva....surprise there...

Man in stead of people clamoring how great Silva is they should clamor for him to fight Weidman....basically the only well rounded guy he has EVER fought...

Jones has flat out killed guys that he BEAT in there area of expertise....Silva has faced "Chael on drugs" subbed him without one little bruise from being on bottom...

Silva was scared to go to the ground with Maia and Leites...They begged him...

Jon Jones has beaten BJJ guys in there game and strikers in there game...

This is just a case of hating on Jon Jones...


there is so much facepalming, I might have given myself a concussion



I feel you bro

george112
10/23/12 8:13:19PM
Jones has faced the more well rounded fighters. To say otherwise is ludicrous. Silva has faced primarily strikers this whole damn streak. Okami exception Maia exception Mate exception and Chael exception. And even them I.wouldnt call well rounded. Bjj artists who can't strike and wrestlers that can't strike either.

Franklin striker
Leben striker
Bonnar striker
Griffin striker
Irving striker


I could go on but why? Silva is basically God here
Bubbles
10/23/12 8:33:16PM

Posted by george112

Jones has faced the more well rounded fighters. To say otherwise is ludicrous. Silva has faced primarily strikers this whole damn streak. Okami exception Maia exception Mate exception and Chael exception. And even them I.wouldnt call well rounded. Bjj artists who can't strike and wrestlers that can't strike either.

Franklin striker
Leben striker
Bonnar striker
Griffin striker
Irving striker


I could go on but why? Silva is basically God here


Shogun striker
Rampage striker
Machida striker
Bonnar striker
Vera striker
Evans too for the most part

This has to be the first time I have defended Silva ever lol
jae_1833
10/23/12 8:35:23PM
You named five strikers I will name three ground wizards, on top of the three you mentioned add Leites and Lutter.....disregard Hendo as well rounded same with Forrest, and Bonnar. Really man! C'MON! I get we all want him to fight Weidman but the dude will get owned by Silva. Bet this:
AV on wether or not Silva beats GSP.....keep it until the fight after he beats Weidman. I am soo game for that!!!
tcunningham
10/23/12 8:41:32PM

Posted by kingsmasher

Ridiculous stats IMO....regardless of what anyone might think even the stats from this site were obviously made by humans....

Jon Jones has faced the most well rounded fighters that are better #1 contenders than anyone else period...

Didnt someone do it here or it was somehere that actually had Matt Hughes as the best champion ever?

I still to this day think Silvas title fights are a joke....

If Silva beats Weidman I will give him the nod....


Who was Andersons best # 1 contender? Chael....he failed a drug test and still IMO he lost that Bisping fight but off course the judges gave it to him for another fight with Silva....surprise there...

Man in stead of people clamoring how great Silva is they should clamor for him to fight Weidman....basically the only well rounded guy he has EVER fought...

Jones has flat out killed guys that he BEAT in there area of expertise....Silva has faced "Chael on drugs" subbed him without one little bruise from being on bottom...

Silva was scared to go to the ground with Maia and Leites...They begged him...

Jon Jones has beaten BJJ guys in there game and strikers in there game...

This is just a case of hating on Jon Jones...



i think jones is on his way to being the greatest champ IF he continues to clean out his division. like i said before, silva has already been champ for longer than the other two just because he came into the sport first. GSP and jones are trying to play catchup. silva will eventually retire and then his champion records will finally be able to be challenged. and for the record, I AM NOT AN ANDERSON SILVA FAN, but i gotta give credit where credit is due. remember jones has been in the ufc for less time than silva has been champion.
Pookie
10/23/12 8:45:38PM
Bj Penn
george112
10/23/12 9:20:50PM

Posted by jae_1833

You named five strikers I will name three ground wizards, on top of the three you mentioned add Leites and Lutter.....disregard Hendo as well rounded same with Forrest, and Bonnar. Really man! C'MON! I get we all want him to fight Weidman but the dude will get owned by Silva. Bet this:
AV on wether or not Silva beats GSP.....keep it until the fight after he beats Weidman. I am soo game for that!!!



You reinforced the point I was trying to make.

I wasn't trying to say Silva hasn't faced enough ground guys.

What I'm trying to say is that Anderson either fights strikers OR ground guys. It's very rare for him to fight someone who is championship contender caliber and that fighter be good at BOTH
Bubbles
10/23/12 10:38:17PM

Posted by Pookie

Bj Penn


holy shit he's back
george112
10/23/12 10:43:44PM

Posted by Bubbles


Posted by Pookie

Bj Penn


holy shit he's back



jae_1833
10/23/12 11:37:23PM

Posted by Pookie

Bj Penn


Well......hello again good sir!
jae_1833
10/23/12 11:47:43PM

Posted by george112

You reinforced the point I was trying to make.

I wasn't trying to say Silva hasn't faced enough ground guys.?

What I'm trying to say is that Anderson either fights strikers OR ground guys. It's very rare for him to fight someone who is championship contender caliber and that fighter be good at BOTH


Ah....I see, well I see that as a legit point, I think Hendo (had he fought Jones) would be the best way to judge who does better at facing well rounded guys. All the guys mentioned are well rounded, it's just a matter of how well rounded. Hendo has the boxing wrestling and even some subs, clinch work for days and certainly ko power for days. I am not sold on Jones' ko power though, his gnp yes! Jones definately has submissions, though it seems like only from the top. Anderson's striking to me is over the top and has ko power and subs, primarily from the bottom or in athe classic bjj style. The two should squash it by fighting it out!
bjj1605
10/24/12 1:06:31AM

Posted by george112

Jones has faced the more well rounded fighters. To say otherwise is ludicrous. Silva has faced primarily strikers this whole damn streak. Okami exception Maia exception Mate exception and Chael exception. And even them I.wouldnt call well rounded. Bjj artists who can't strike and wrestlers that can't strike either.

Franklin striker
Leben striker
Bonnar striker
Griffin striker
Irving striker


I could go on but why? Silva is basically God here


If you read my initial post you will see that I acknowledged this problem. The stats don't tell you anything about stylistic challenges.

What it tells you is which guy has faced the best challengers WITH REGARDS TO HOW MUCH OF A THREAT THEY WERE PERCEIVED TO BE AT THE TIME.

I don't think this is really much of a problem though. I feel very confident saying that Anderson's challengers were given a better chance to beat him than the challengers of GSP or Jon Jones. If all of Anderson's fights were stylistically favorable, then why did more people expect Anderson to lose than the other two champions?

To be clear, I didn't do this to prove that Anderson has faced the toughest challengers. I thought this would be a fun little project and I was actually interested to see what the results would be. I didn't calculate the numbers prior to posting, I did it as I was writing the post.

I actually expected Jon Jones to win with Anderson in second. Here's my explanation for why that didn't happen:

Jon Jones has fought guys with high NAME RECOGNITION. Lots of people think he's had the better challengers because of this. But Shogun and Rampage are fighters past their prime. Just because they were legends yesterday doesn't mean they are good title challengers today.

Anderson on the other hand fought guys at the pinnacle of their careers. Demian Maia, Patrick Cote, Nate Marquardt, and Thales Leites don't sound as impressive but they all looked better prior to fighting Anderson than after. They were legit challengers at the time, as legit or more legit than Rampage IMO. Dan Henderson, Rich Franklin, and Chael Sonnen all have high name recognition and all of theme were still in their prime when Anderson beat them. Okami is the wild card because he doesn't have high name recognition but he was and still is one of the most dangerous fighters in the MW division. Vitor Belfort is the only one you could say was past his prime.

As far as styles go though.....

4 of Anderson's 10 defenses were against what I would call very unfavorable match-ups (Chael Sonnen 2x, Dan Henderson, Yushin Okami.)

2 were moderately unfavorable match-ups. Marquardt and Maia might not be champion wrestlers but both guys have very good takedowns and outstanding grappling (Maia threw Chael Sonnen over his head and took down Rick Story easily). Marquardt also has very good striking.

2 were pretty much even. These being both of the Rich Franklin fights. Rich is such a great fighter, and so well rounded, that he could have been a serious threat. In the first fight we didn't know how big of an advantage Anderson had standing. In the second fight many people thought Rich would try to muscle Anderson and take him to the ground. Not stylistically bad, but not good either. (Edit: the first fight doesn't actually count because it wasn't a defense.)

3 were favorable match-ups. Patrick Cote didn't have a chance standing and that's what he does. Thales Leites has the grappling but not the take down skill. Vitor, because he was a striker, was a gift for Anderson. However, many people thought Vitor had a good chance standing.


So actually, I don't agree with they stylistic argument you're making.
bjj1605
10/24/12 1:09:32AM
double post
Theoutlaw08
10/24/12 9:00:51AM

Posted by kingsmasher

Ridiculous stats IMO....regardless of what anyone might think even the stats from this site were obviously made by humans....

Jon Jones has faced the most well rounded fighters that are better #1 contenders than anyone else period...

Didnt someone do it here or it was somehere that actually had Matt Hughes as the best champion ever?

I still to this day think Silvas title fights are a joke....

If Silva beats Weidman I will give him the nod....


Who was Andersons best # 1 contender? Chael....he failed a drug test and still IMO he lost that Bisping fight but off course the judges gave it to him for another fight with Silva....surprise there...

Man in stead of people clamoring how great Silva is they should clamor for him to fight Weidman....basically the only well rounded guy he has EVER fought...

Jones has flat out killed guys that he BEAT in there area of expertise....Silva has faced "Chael on drugs" subbed him without one little bruise from being on bottom...

Silva was scared to go to the ground with Maia and Leites...They begged him...

Jon Jones has beaten BJJ guys in there game and strikers in there game...

This is just a case of hating on Jon Jones...



I wish I could just post me being silent...but then it would have just been his post again....after reading this, this is what i want to say, "Mr. kingsmasher, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Hate him or not, its hard to say Anderson isn't the best champ ever. All stats aside, failed back fists aside, last second chokes aside and guitar playing aside...he is the best champ the UFC has seen. Also, Wiedman is the number 1 contender, and wht would Anderson beating him, finally make him the best champ??? What about the other 10 title defenses he has had???
Bubbles
10/24/12 9:55:03AM

Posted by bjj1605

2 were moderately unfavorable match-ups. Marquardt and Maia might not be champion wrestlers but both guys have very good takedowns and outstanding grappling (Maia threw Chael Sonnen over his head and took down Rick Story easily).


I can agree with most of your post, but the TD's Maia attempted vs Silva were so piss poor I could have stopped most of them. He tried double legs from like 5 feet out and gave up if he didn't touch Silva's legs and dropped to his ass instead of driving through. Those don't work on Silva. Maybe a clinch TD would have worked but he never tried that
george112
10/24/12 11:16:48AM

Posted by bjj1605


Posted by george112

Jones has faced the more well rounded fighters. To say otherwise is ludicrous. Silva has faced primarily strikers this whole damn streak. Okami exception Maia exception Mate exception and Chael exception. And even them I.wouldnt call well rounded. Bjj artists who can't strike and wrestlers that can't strike either.

Franklin striker
Leben striker
Bonnar striker
Griffin striker
Irving striker


I could go on but why? Silva is basically God here


If you read my initial post you will see that I acknowledged this problem. The stats don't tell you anything about stylistic challenges.

What it tells you is which guy has faced the best challengers WITH REGARDS TO HOW MUCH OF A THREAT THEY WERE PERCEIVED TO BE AT THE TIME.

I don't think this is really much of a problem though. I feel very confident saying that Anderson's challengers were given a better chance to beat him than the challengers of GSP or Jon Jones. If all of Anderson's fights were stylistically favorable, then why did more people expect Anderson to lose than the other two champions?

To be clear, I didn't do this to prove that Anderson has faced the toughest challengers. I thought this would be a fun little project and I was actually interested to see what the results would be. I didn't calculate the numbers prior to posting, I did it as I was writing the post.

I actually expected Jon Jones to win with Anderson in second. Here's my explanation for why that didn't happen:

Jon Jones has fought guys with high NAME RECOGNITION. Lots of people think he's had the better challengers because of this. But Shogun and Rampage are fighters past their prime. Just because they were legends yesterday doesn't mean they are good title challengers today.

Anderson on the other hand fought guys at the pinnacle of their careers. Demian Maia, Patrick Cote, Nate Marquardt, and Thales Leites don't sound as impressive but they all looked better prior to fighting Anderson than after. They were legit challengers at the time, as legit or more legit than Rampage IMO. Dan Henderson, Rich Franklin, and Chael Sonnen all have high name recognition and all of theme were still in their prime when Anderson beat them. Okami is the wild card because he doesn't have high name recognition but he was and still is one of the most dangerous fighters in the MW division. Vitor Belfort is the only one you could say was past his prime.

As far as styles go though.....

4 of Anderson's 10 defenses were against what I would call very unfavorable match-ups (Chael Sonnen 2x, Dan Henderson, Yushin Okami.)

2 were moderately unfavorable match-ups. Marquardt and Maia might not be champion wrestlers but both guys have very good takedowns and outstanding grappling (Maia threw Chael Sonnen over his head and took down Rick Story easily). Marquardt also has very good striking.

2 were pretty much even. These being both of the Rich Franklin fights. Rich is such a great fighter, and so well rounded, that he could have been a serious threat. In the first fight we didn't know how big of an advantage Anderson had standing. In the second fight many people thought Rich would try to muscle Anderson and take him to the ground. Not stylistically bad, but not good either. (Edit: the first fight doesn't actually count because it wasn't a defense.)

3 were favorable match-ups. Patrick Cote didn't have a chance standing and that's what he does. Thales Leites has the grappling but not the take down skill. Vitor, because he was a striker, was a gift for Anderson. However, many people thought Vitor had a good chance standing.


So actually, I don't agree with they stylistic argument you're making.



Dude all the fights you said were unfavorable were favorable with the exception of maybe Okami and Chael and that's only because they are wrestling based. It worked for a little while for Chael but not Okami.

For the fights to be unfavorable for Silva that you mentioned you would have to assume that those people were better at the one thing those fighters did then Silva

Nate-BJJ
Maia-BJJ
Hendo-Striking
Chael-Wrestling

So much no in all of those.

Nate can't strike with Silva. That reason alone should make the fight unfavorable for Nate not Silva

Maia can't strike with Anderson or take him down. Once again unfavorable for Maia

Hendo unfortunately imo wasn't even a good matchup for Silva from Hendos POV. Hendo rarely uses his wrestling and we all know he goes for the powerful overhand. That absolutely will not work against Silva and we both know that.

That brings me to Chael. He found some success with his wrestling but in the end he fell to Silva via Silvas BJJ. The second fight only proved to me how one dimensional Chael really is if he can't get you down he's pretty much through. He can't strike. And he's also proven when he does finally get you down he's susceptible for a sub primarily the triangle.

Franklin I agree is the most well rounded fighter out of ALL Silvas defenses . But the problem is is that that's only ONE guy!!!!

Stop feeding Silva one dimensional guys already. He's proven himself hes not only a striker . Hes a standup fighter AND a ground fighter. The only problem is that he rarely has to use his ground game because he gets fed strikers who just aren't as good that are totally out of water on the ground hence the not going to the ground and KOs. And then when he does get fed guys that can do something on the ground that's all they can do!!!

One dimensional fighters

With the exception of Franklin.

With the possibility of Hendo as another.


bjj1605
10/24/12 2:18:09PM

Posted by george112


Dude all the fights you said were unfavorable were favorable with the exception of maybe Okami and Chael and that's only because they are wrestling based. It worked for a little while for Chael but not Okami.

For the fights to be unfavorable for Silva that you mentioned you would have to assume that those people were better at the one thing those fighters did then Silva

Nate-BJJ
Maia-BJJ
Hendo-Striking
Chael-Wrestling

So much no in all of those.

Nate can't strike with Silva. That reason alone should make the fight unfavorable for Nate not Silva

Maia can't strike with Anderson or take him down. Once again unfavorable for Maia

Hendo unfortunately imo wasn't even a good matchup for Silva from Hendos POV. Hendo rarely uses his wrestling and we all know he goes for the powerful overhand. That absolutely will not work against Silva and we both know that.

That brings me to Chael. He found some success with his wrestling but in the end he fell to Silva via Silvas BJJ. The second fight only proved to me how one dimensional Chael really is if he can't get you down he's pretty much through. He can't strike. And he's also proven when he does finally get you down he's susceptible for a sub primarily the triangle.

Franklin I agree is the most well rounded fighter out of ALL Silvas defenses . But the problem is is that that's only ONE guy!!!!

Stop feeding Silva one dimensional guys already. He's proven himself hes not only a striker . Hes a standup fighter AND a ground fighter. The only problem is that he rarely has to use his ground game because he gets fed strikers who just aren't as good that are totally out of water on the ground hence the not going to the ground and KOs. And then when he does get fed guys that can do something on the ground that's all they can do!!!

One dimensional fighters

With the exception of Franklin.

With the possibility of Hendo as another.




Nate marquardt is not a BJJ guy by any stretch of the imagination. He's got good submissions but he also has very good takedowns and ground and pound. He's also very good standing. It's not right to focus on his striking though because he tried using takedowns against Anderson.

Maia couldn't strike with him but he sure as hell was a takedown/submission threat. We didn't know before the fight that Maia would be scared to get close enough to actually try a takedown (not trying to fighter bash. I love Maia. Maybe tentative is a better word.)

Dan Henderson may be mostly a striker NOW but he definitely acted like a wrestler in that fight. I don't know if you remember it or not but Dan spent the whole first round on top of Anderson. It was a lot like the second fight with Chael really.

Okami and Chael were obviously bad match-ups and you acknowledged that.

Also, me an you have a totally different conception of what an unfavorable match-up is. You seem to think unfavorable would be a striker. I think that's ludicrous. If you're waiting around for some title challenger to come and out strike Anderson, you're going to be waiting for a long time.

To me the strong grapplers and wrestlers are obviously the unfavorable match-ups for him. He's best when he's standing and that's what he wants to do. Sure he has good BJJ but it isn't worlds ahead of everyone else like his striking is.

You're also focusing on guys "being well rounded." I think you're putting to much emphasis on that. After all, Anderson's toughest challenger so far was a fairly one-dimensional fighter (a specialists.) Guys who are great at the one skill Anderson is lacking are likely to be the biggest threat (wrestlers.)

But he has fought plenty of well rounded guys. Franklin, Dan Henderson, Marquardt, and Vitor are all what I would call well rounded guys. All four have better than average striking and better than average grappling.

And this whole argument is kind of a moot point anyway. If all of Anderson's title defenses were so easy, then why did MORE people pick his challengers to win than any of the other champions?

You still haven't come up with an excuse for that.
george112
10/24/12 2:55:27PM

Posted by bjj1605


Posted by george112


Dude all the fights you said were unfavorable were favorable with the exception of maybe Okami and Chael and that's only because they are wrestling based. It worked for a little while for Chael but not Okami.

For the fights to be unfavorable for Silva that you mentioned you would have to assume that those people were better at the one thing those fighters did then Silva

Nate-BJJ
Maia-BJJ
Hendo-Striking
Chael-Wrestling

So much no in all of those.

Nate can't strike with Silva. That reason alone should make the fight unfavorable for Nate not Silva

Maia can't strike with Anderson or take him down. Once again unfavorable for Maia

Hendo unfortunately imo wasn't even a good matchup for Silva from Hendos POV. Hendo rarely uses his wrestling and we all know he goes for the powerful overhand. That absolutely will not work against Silva and we both know that.

That brings me to Chael. He found some success with his wrestling but in the end he fell to Silva via Silvas BJJ. The second fight only proved to me how one dimensional Chael really is if he can't get you down he's pretty much through. He can't strike. And he's also proven when he does finally get you down he's susceptible for a sub primarily the triangle.

Franklin I agree is the most well rounded fighter out of ALL Silvas defenses . But the problem is is that that's only ONE guy!!!!

Stop feeding Silva one dimensional guys already. He's proven himself hes not only a striker . Hes a standup fighter AND a ground fighter. The only problem is that he rarely has to use his ground game because he gets fed strikers who just aren't as good that are totally out of water on the ground hence the not going to the ground and KOs. And then when he does get fed guys that can do something on the ground that's all they can do!!!

One dimensional fighters

With the exception of Franklin.

With the possibility of Hendo as another.




Nate marquardt is not a BJJ guy by any stretch of the imagination. He's got good submissions but he also has very good takedowns and ground and pound. He's also very good standing. It's not right to focus on his striking though because he tried using takedowns against Anderson.

Maia couldn't strike with him but he sure as hell was a takedown/submission threat. We didn't know before the fight that Maia would be scared to get close enough to actually try a takedown (not trying to fighter bash. I love Maia. Maybe tentative is a better word.)

Dan Henderson may be mostly a striker NOW but he definitely acted like a wrestler in that fight. I don't know if you remember it or not but Dan spent the whole first round on top of Anderson. It was a lot like the second fight with Chael really.

Okami and Chael were obviously bad match-ups and you acknowledged that.

Also, me an you have a totally different conception of what an unfavorable match-up is. You seem to think unfavorable would be a striker. I think that's ludicrous. If you're waiting around for some title challenger to come and out strike Anderson, you're going to be waiting for a long time.

To me the strong grapplers and wrestlers are obviously the unfavorable match-ups for him. He's best when he's standing and that's what he wants to do. Sure he has good BJJ but it isn't worlds ahead of everyone else like his striking is.

You're also focusing on guys "being well rounded." I think you're putting to much emphasis on that. After all, Anderson's toughest challenger so far was a fairly one-dimensional fighter (a specialists.) Guys who are great at the one skill Anderson is lacking are likely to be the biggest threat (wrestlers.)

But he has fought plenty of well rounded guys. Franklin, Dan Henderson, Marquardt, and Vitor are all what I would call well rounded guys. All four have better than average striking and better than average grappling.

And this whole argument is kind of a moot point anyway. If all of Anderson's title defenses were so easy, then why did MORE people pick his challengers to win than any of the other champions?

You still haven't come up with an excuse for that.



How many guys has Anderson faced in the UFC that posed a threat on the ground and on the feet?
bjj1605
10/24/12 4:37:36PM

Posted by george112


How many guys has Anderson faced in the UFC that posed a threat on the ground and on the feet?



Dan Henderson, Nate Marquardt, Rich Franklin, Forrest Griffin, and Vitor Belfort.

I assume you mean pose a threat generally because that's the only fair way to look at it. Obviously none of these guys pose a threat to Anderson on the feet. But that's because no one does .
george112
10/24/12 8:23:33PM

Posted by bjj1605


Posted by george112


How many guys has Anderson faced in the UFC that posed a threat on the ground and on the feet?



Dan Henderson, Nate Marquardt, Rich Franklin, Forrest Griffin, and Vitor Belfort.

I assume you mean pose a threat generally because that's the only fair way to look at it. Obviously none of these guys pose a threat to Anderson on the feet. But that's because no one does .


So 5.
Considering Silvas streak is a hell of a lot bigger then 5 what does your statement actually say about his opponents?


To me it says that out of 16 fights in the UFC only 6 were against people that actually stood a chance of winning . Tells me that everyone else who wasn't on your list had no business being in the cage with Anderson in the first place and those should have been easy wins for him.which they were

You agreed with me unintentionally.

And what you agreed with is obviously that Silva faces a majority of one dimensional fighters who shouldnt have fought Anderson in the first place.
bjj1605
10/24/12 9:22:52PM

Posted by george112


Posted by bjj1605


Posted by george112


How many guys has Anderson faced in the UFC that posed a threat on the ground and on the feet?



Dan Henderson, Nate Marquardt, Rich Franklin, Forrest Griffin, and Vitor Belfort.

I assume you mean pose a threat generally because that's the only fair way to look at it. Obviously none of these guys pose a threat to Anderson on the feet. But that's because no one does .


So 5.
Considering Silvas streak is a hell of a lot bigger then 5 what does your statement actually say about his opponents?


To me it says that out of 16 fights in the UFC only 6 were against people that actually stood a chance of winning . Tells me that everyone else who wasn't on your list had no business being in the cage with Anderson in the first place and those should have been easy wins for him.which they were

You agreed with me unintentionally.

And what you agreed with is obviously that Silva faces a majority of one dimensional fighters who shouldnt have fought Anderson in the first place.



I don't agree at all actually.

I already talked about why two posts ago. I don't think that the well rounded guys are necessarily the bigger threats. I think that the specialists are the bigger threat. Guys with great grappling, even if they don't have good striking, are a challenge for him.
george112
10/24/12 9:33:31PM
Okay well you said it yourself it can't be a specialist striker.
So that leaves a specialist grappler.

Now ill ask you this.

How many specialist grapplers has he faced?

Also why in your opinion are the specialists more of a threat?
bjj1605
10/25/12 9:33:06AM

Posted by george112

Okay well you said it yourself it can't be a specialist striker.
So that leaves a specialist grappler.

Now ill ask you this.

How many specialist grapplers has he faced?

Also why in your opinion are the specialists more of a threat?



I already answered both those questions.


Posted by bjj1605


Also, me and you have a totally different conception of what an unfavorable match-up is. You seem to think unfavorable would be a striker. I think that's ludicrous. If you're waiting around for some title challenger to come and out strike Anderson, you're going to be waiting for a long time.

To me the strong grapplers and wrestlers are obviously the unfavorable match-ups for him. He's best when he's standing and that's what he wants to do. Sure he has good BJJ but it isn't worlds ahead of everyone else like his striking is.




Basically Anderson is a striking specialist. He also has good BJJ but it is no where on the level of his striking. His striking is WAYYYY better than everyone else's but there are many guys that are better at BJJ and wrestling both.

I find it extremely impressive that despite being at a stylistic disadvantage against most of his opponents (guys who are good at his weakness) Anderson has consistently dominated.


Posted by bjj1605


4 of Anderson's 10 defenses were against what I would call very unfavorable match-ups (Chael Sonnen 2x, Dan Henderson, Yushin Okami.)

2 were moderately unfavorable match-ups. Marquardt and Maia might not be champion wrestlers but both guys have very good takedowns and outstanding grappling (Maia threw Chael Sonnen over his head and took down Rick Story easily). Marquardt also has very good striking.



Those six title defenses are all against strong grapplers who either A) Don't have the striking to try Anderson on the feet or B) Acted like pure grapplers when they fought Anderson.

You could add Travis Lutter in there too but I didn't because this thread is supposed to be about title challengers only. I also think our conversation here proves how diverse Anderson's challenger's have been. He's fought:

1) Strong wrestlers both with and without good striking (Hendo, Chael 2x, Okami.)
2) Strong grapplers with good takedowns (Maia, Marquardt.)
3) Strikers (Cote, Belfort.)
4) Well rounded guys (Hendo, Marquardt, Belfort, Franklin 2x.)
5) And one good jiu jitsu guy who doesn't have good takedowns or good striking (Leites.)

If anything he's lacking opponents that are striking specialists more than he's lacking guys that are well rounded, wrestlers, or grapplers. But you and I seem to agree that looking for strikers is not the way to go. If you think Anderson is going to get out struck then lets match him up with Michael Bisping and see what happens.


Again though, this whole conversation is missing the point. This thread isn't about which guy has faced the more well rounded fighters or the tougher stylistic challenges, per se. This thread is about which guy faced challengers that were perceived to be a bigger threat.

I've asked you three times now and you've dodged the question three times.

If Anderson hasn't faced good challengers, then why did more people pick him to lose than they did the other two champions?
george112
10/25/12 10:25:01AM
That question is so simple to answer.


There's 3 reasons why. But there are also multiple factors that could influence one to not pick Anderson. The main factor would be who in fact the challenger was.

1. People just don't like Anderson.

2. People like the challenger more so then Anderson.
(hendo.belfort.bonnar)

3. People actually thought the challenger would pull off the upset. (chael x2.)

Imo the main reason would be that people liked the challenger more so then Anderson.

Also you have to look at when the fight took place.

A lot of people picked Leben to win because they just plain didn't know about Silva enough. And that trend could go on all the way upto when he beat Franklin and took the belt. Then people realized what he could do and would only pick against him when peoples hearts wouldn't let them pick against some of their favorite fighters.

In the end your right these numbers are totally misleading. There are too many factors like the few I listed to give you an accurate account on an opponents threat level
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