Brock "This is the last time you'll see me in the octagon,"

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warglory
1/1/12 1:38:38PM

Posted by Cooler

I'm gonna play 's advocate here.

1) In Carwins defense, if he had been fighting anyone else except the UFC's cash cow then that fight probably gets stopped more often than not can you agree? I like it when fighters come back from beatings and win like Brock did but with different refs you can get vastly different results as well. I personally think the Carwin fight is a legit win for Brock but it is a bit tarnished because of the damage he was allowed to take without a TKO being called.



But that's pure speculation. There have any been tons of fights over the years where champions especially have been given the benefit of the doubt when they weren't in serious trouble, and the ref knew they did not want to end the fight unless absolutely necessary.



2) Nog outgrappled Randy. I cant recall if he got taken down but it doesnt make much differnce to me, you were talking about Randy being very technical for his size but then Nog comes along and whips the floor with Randy. I have no doubt Nog would have beaten Brock at any point after seeing both of their fights, along with a lot of other good heavyweights. Its hard not to admit Brock was given the easy road and leapfrogged more worthy contenders for the belt, like Werdum and Nog both of whom I would pick over Brock as well.



It can be argued that Nog outgrappled Randy for sure, but he didn't out-wrestle him. How can you say that Nog would be more successful than Mir? Mir got absolutely obliterated, and he's a pretty good boxer himself. Nog relies on technical boxing (which isn't the fastest in the world btw), and his jits. These are Mir's traits as well, but Lesnar blasted right through him. I think Nog would be mince meat, as would Werdum, easily.



3) Lets be real though, Herring has never had good takedown defense even in his prime against Nog, he was taking him down at will. And I like the other posters point about Herring basically retiring after the Brock fight because he was probably coming to the end of his career in that fight. Had he beaten Brock he probably gets a title shot but he's retired now none the less (unless he plans a comeback?) and was never realistically a top guy at HW except back in Pride where he didnt fight strong grapplers as much



He didn't retire because of Brock though, he went on to make movies after that, and according to Heath himself, hasn't been able to come to agreements with Zuffa about fights. He was scheduled to fight Velasquez in 2009, but got injured.



4) I think the other posters point is Brock had been matched up with guys he could take down easily to work his ground and pound. I mean if Maz didnt stop the ground and pound before Mir got the kneebar then Brock maybe wouldve gotten a title shot right after a TKO win over Mir but at least he wouldnt have a 2-1 record going into a title fight. The undeserved title shot with a 2-1 record without avenging the loss before the the title fight was a really strange situation for the HW division. It should have been just been Nog vs. Randy (champ vs interim champ) but the UFC decided they wanted Brock to win the title or go into gatekeeper status and handed him the title shot, forcing Nog to fight Mir to defend an interim belt lol it had shenanigans written all over it.


Sorry, end rant



What does matchmaking have to do with Lesnar though? Whether it should have been Lesnar or Big Nog is irrelevant, Lesnar got the opportunity, beat the champ, beat the interim champ, and beat Carwin to become the undisputed hw champ.

Whether he was deserving of the title shot or not is moot, because he took advantage of the opportunity and ran with it.
Cooler
1/1/12 4:21:10PM

Posted by warglory
But that's pure speculation. There have any been tons of fights over the years where champions especially have been given the benefit of the doubt when they weren't in serious trouble, and the ref knew they did not want to end the fight unless absolutely necessary.



I call it a good observation but you can call it speculation to avoid the question.


Posted by Warglory
It can be argued that Nog outgrappled Randy for sure, but he didn't out-wrestle him. How can you say that Nog would be more successful than Mir? Mir got absolutely obliterated, and he's a pretty good boxer himself. Nog relies on technical boxing (which isn't the fastest in the world btw), and his jits. These are Mir's traits as well, but Lesnar blasted right through him. I think Nog would be mince meat, as would Werdum, easily.



The point of bringing up Nog outgrappling Randy was to point out Brock couldnt handle Randy and in fact got outgrappled by Randy in round 1 and he's supposed to be the best wrestler in MMA. So it doesnt matter about wrestling when someone has the means to outgrapple you. Mir also beat Brock with a kneebar that Nog and Werdum (especially Werdum) could land on him as well. How you can sit there and say Brock could stand with Nog or Werdum then avoid the submissions from two of the best HW grapplers in the sport? sorry but everything in brocks 5-3 record shows he's very beatable and overhyped.


Posted by Warglory
He didn't retire because of Brock though, he went on to make movies after that, and according to Heath himself, hasn't been able to come to agreements with Zuffa about fights. He was scheduled to fight Velasquez in 2009, but got injured.



How's that career in movies working out for Herring? I mean of course he wanted to be a movie star and make millions who doesnt? but ultimately he was at the end of his career. I never Brock said retired him, I just said a win over him is big incentive and a loss obviously brought him to retire. Semantics really.


Posted by Warglory
Whether he was deserving of the title shot or not is moot, because he took advantage of the opportunity and ran with it.



I guess you missed the point of that part. Just because you are given the opportunity and happened to win doesnt mean it was justified even if the guy won a belt at 2-1 without avenging the loss lol. If you found out hypothetically that god was real tomorrow with scentific evidence you couldnt say the theists were justified if there wasnt any reason to justify it, you would still need to prove it before you assert it and theres no way to prove Brock deserved the shot because he didnt fight his way up the ladder to find out if he was legit or not, now he's 5-3 (with 2 of those wins against guys not in the top 10) and hindsight tells me everything I already knew about Lesnar. You can run around saying Brock deserved to be handed a title shot all you want but you cant ignore the fact he was given the golden road and theres a reason a lot of fighters are starting to come out against Brock and his unfair road to success.
Kpro
1/1/12 4:23:20PM

Posted by mmastripped

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jjeans
1/1/12 6:51:10PM
Shame... I wanted to see him vs Kongo... I think It'd be interesting especially in Lesnars current situation!
warglory
1/1/12 11:55:42PM

Posted by Cooler
I call it a good observation but you can call it speculation to avoid the question.



That's...the same thing. You are voicing your opinion, which has no merit when it comes to a debate until you can show proof that the ref was somehow biased.




The point of bringing up Nog outgrappling Randy was to point out Brock couldnt handle Randy and in fact got outgrappled by Randy in round 1 and he's supposed to be the best wrestler in MMA. So it doesnt matter about wrestling when someone has the means to outgrapple you. Mir also beat Brock with a kneebar that Nog and Werdum (especially Werdum) could land on him as well. How you can sit there and say Brock could stand with Nog or Werdum then avoid the submissions from two of the best HW grapplers in the sport? sorry but everything in brocks 5-3 record shows he's very beatable and overhyped.



Mir landed a kneebar on Lesnar, this is true...in the second fight of his career. This is what happened to Mir, the best BJJ fighter at heavyweight, in their second fight:




The problem with your argument is that you are using MMAth to corroborate your point. Big Nog has jits, which Randy was susceptible to, but Lesnar's size is clearly not as susceptible to jits with his awesome top control and size, based on the evidence we have from their fights. In a nutshell: your argument isn't logical.



How's that career in movies working out for Herring? I mean of course he wanted to be a movie star and make millions who doesnt? but ultimately he was at the end of his career. I never Brock said retired him, I just said a win over him is big incentive and a loss obviously brought him to retire. Semantics really.



In a roundabout way, you just said that Brock caused him to retire.




I guess you missed the point of that part. Just because you are given the opportunity and happened to win doesnt mean it was justified even if the guy won a belt at 2-1 without avenging the loss lol. If you found out hypothetically that god was real tomorrow with scentific evidence you couldnt say the theists were justified if there wasnt any reason to justify it, you would still need to prove it before you assert it and theres no way to prove Brock deserved the shot because he didnt fight his way up the ladder to find out if he was legit or not, now he's 5-3 (with 2 of those wins against guys not in the top 10) and hindsight tells me everything I already knew about Lesnar. You can run around saying Brock deserved to be handed a title shot all you want but you cant ignore the fact he was given the golden road and theres a reason a lot of fighters are starting to come out against Brock and his unfair road to success.



Sour grapes. I don't care if Brock deserved the shot or not. You are trying to discredit the man's success for this reason, which is asinine. What was Brock supposed to do? Turn down the opportunity to fight Randy Couture for the title? Should he have turned down the opportunity to fight Mir for the second time too?
bjj1605
1/3/12 9:17:42PM

Posted by emfleek


Posted by warglory


Posted by moob

Glad this whole charade is over. Never rated him as a fighter, but as everyone knows, when you're a big heavyweight you always have that chance. I hope this is the last WWE 'fighter' we have imported for ratings.



Charade eh? Do you say that about all former UFC champs?



Exactly. Shit like that is the reason I hate MMA fans sometimes.

Give me a f'ing break. He beat some of the sport's all-time greats and you're going to call it a charade?



He took it way too far.

Brock's career wasn't a charade. But some people gave him way to much credit. He was overrated is all.

Most of those folks were uneducated fans though.

He was a very good wrestler and very big. Other than that....he had shown no great talent for submissions and his stand-up was awful. He's also afraid to get hit.

I won't try and belittle his title or accomplishments, but he never earned his title shot to begin with. If he had to go through the normal road he would have been exposed sooner.
Cooler
1/3/12 9:44:17PM

Posted by warglory
That's...the same thing. You are voicing your opinion, which has no merit when it comes to a debate until you can show proof that the ref was somehow biased.



No its not the same thing, you didnt acknowledge that it was a good or bad observation you just wanted to say that I cant know if the ref was biased so therefore you have to throw the idea out. So until you did or didnt acknowledge my question you would still be avoiding it.


Posted by warglory
The problem with your argument is that you are using MMAth to corroborate your point. Big Nog has jits, which Randy was susceptible to, but Lesnar's size is clearly not as susceptible to jits with his awesome top control and size, based on the evidence we have from their fights. In a nutshell: your argument isn't logical.



Who doesnt use MMAth in some context sometimes? And you saying that Lesnar isnt that susceptible to jitz when he was tapped quite easily with a kneebar and didnt fight his way up the ladder against other JJ fighters like Werdum, Nog. So you think Brock can beat a lot of fighters.. based on what? he barely fought and begged for the golden road and since he was famous he got it, he pissed off a lot of HW's at the time who worked their way up, even Cro Cop didnt get a title shot right away and he was considered top 10 at the time he entered the octagon, Brock had a 2-1 record going into a title fight, theres something fishy here and I'm sorry you cant smell it. Had he actually fought his way up the ranking its highly doubtful he gets a title shot and you know it. He failed his first freakin test in the octagon. Get a grip please, any top HW could win the belt early in their careers if given the silver spoon treatment, thats not a good excuse to say "oh well brock won the belt, so therefore it was justified to give him the shot" sorry you still havnt refuted that buddy.


Posted by Warglory
In a roundabout way, you just said that Brock caused him to retire.



Why do you need to spin everything, and so what, the proof is in the pudding, Herring doesnt fight anymore. Your argument here is pointless hair-splitting.



Posted by Warglory
Sour grapes. I don't care if Brock deserved the shot or not. You are trying to discredit the man's success for this reason, which is asinine. What was Brock supposed to do? Turn down the opportunity to fight Randy Couture for the title? Should he have turned down the opportunity to fight Mir for the second time too?



You dont care? well then you dont sound like a very moral person if you dont care for events to be justified. I love how you just refer to me discrediting Brock when its zuffa that is completely to blame for my problem with Brocks MMA career. When you say "should he have turned it down?" all I can say is why the hell would zuffa give a guy a title shot at 2-1 just because he's famous? to get ratings? It's called selling out the sport, what zuffa did with Lesnar was no different than what Jerry Shaw did for Kimbo in the sense of using a guy with a big name and little fight experience to draw big crowds. And if thats all the played into Brock getting a title shot, than I can critisize them for selling out and you have to dance around like an elitist saying they can do no wrong and everything is justified in the end. Sorry no dice.
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