UFC 87 Brock Lesnar analysis

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Jackelope
8/10/08 4:34:53AM
Well Lesnar pulled off what I figured he would if he was going to beat HH. The Minnesota Martial Arts Academy Man Hump Special LnP Victory. (MMAAMHSLnPV for short ) All credit goes to him and his camp for the victory. Still, even with this victory I can't give the man all the credit in the world. He certainly showcased his wrestling credentials (which I've always believed are there) and his cardio was very impressive. Below are a couple paragraphs analyzing Brock's performance.

He showed excellent wrestling control- but he showed little effort to finish the fight by anything other than the occasional big wound up GnP shot. He could have taken and held HH's back many, many times during the fight. Every time he earned full mount he lost it 5 seconds later. Against a gassed out and significantly weaker opponent I might add. He was still making mistakes in there that he absolutely 100% should not have made and once faced against a high level BJJ guy with an active guard he will be made to pay for. Mark my words true on that one.

One thing I was impressed with was Greg Nelson's tutelage. I've never been overly fond of Greg Nelson's training, but he obviously built a solid gameplan and convinced his fighter to stick to it. Props to both Greg and Brock for that. First with the faking of the double leg to the overhand right and then sticking to the wrestling top control to ride out the victory. Negative props for Lesnar trying to celebrate and make fun of HH by riding him like a bull at the end and losing his dominant position in doing so.

From a technical standpoint his standup still looked pathetic, but his shots for the takedowns looked phenomenal. Before people start screaming about the big shot landed being a testament to his standup skills- He obviously pushed the hell out of that punch with pure muscle. HH rolled right out of it and even though he had a decent sized mouse over his eye because of it there was absolutely 0 snap to the punch. That same set up and that same punch thrown by someone with legit standup skills would have KO'd HH on his feet. For a good example watch and more importantly LISTEN to when GSP landed his overhand right on Fitch. You could clearly hear the "snap!" sound of the punch. That's the sound that tells you the punch was thrown and landed correctly. He still showed a non commital jab (although effective to maintain space) and clumsy footwork. I'd look for his standup to be his major focus before his next fight.

All in all- I'm still lukewarm about him. He has potential, but he's got to mature in certain areas. His skillset will take a lot of time to develop with all of that muscle. It's going to work against him in BJJ and in the standup game. He could also stand to ease up on the tearing of the mic out of Rogan's hand and the unnecessary giddiness (like riding his opponent like a bull)

Post your thoughts and your flames. I've got my shields up, bitches!
JohnnyNapalm
8/10/08 4:42:01AM
Heath's face resembled Hamburger Helper at the end of the fight and his ribs won't be ready for ticklin' any time soon after the knees he absorbed and you have the brilliance to say he was "man humped"?

Good call.

Now tell us how white Kongo is.
Mr_Dead_Sexy
8/10/08 4:51:30AM
I remember one point in the match where I swear it looked like the keylock was wide open, but he was just using it to hold HH's arm down. And not that I'd expect it, but it looked like arm-triangles were there at a few points.

The thing that really turns me off about Lesnar is his cockyness. He was pushed to the moon and back by WWE. He was the boy there for awhile. So he was kinda used to getting it his way. I'm really hoping Dana doesn't try to market him as the face of the UFC HW division. He's a phenomenal athlete, don't get me wrong, but the arm pumping, laughing, celebratory BS talking he did in the last couple seconds, not a fan. I honestly thought Heath was going to head butt or something when they hugged at the end. I'm not saying that I'm against fighters celebrating a win, but act like you've been there before.

I really want to see Lesnar vs a top notch wrestler before I say much about him. If not a wrestler, then someone with above average TD defense. The HW division is shallow atm, almost the level when we had Eilers and Buentello as serious contenders. Here's my quick synopsis of next possible opponents.

O'Brien - Probably on his way out. This would ensure that.
Cain - Not yet. Guarantee that. Lose/lose for the UFC.
GG - Possibility.
Kongo - I don't think so. UFC will probably try to build him up again.
Wellisch - Maybe.
Coleman - If he heals/doesn't fight Shogun.
The Insane One - Won't prove much. But hey, who else do they have?

From this, Gonzaga looks like the best bet, and what would probably be his toughest fight. Never been much a fan of Kongo. His ground game has been improving, but it's still nothing to write home about.
Svartorm
8/10/08 4:59:13AM
If you've seen Herring fight before, he ALWAYS looks like that. Even against Brad Imes he was moused up and bleeding, and Imes barely laid a finger on him. He just bruises easily after a decade in the sport, and cutting his teeth in Vale Tudo.

Brock looked better than last time cardio wise, although Herring didn't have the skill set to really make him work in there. His wrestling was solid, but thats the one thing we DID know about Brock coming into this.

Overall, if they give him the right opponents and build him, he could develop a deadly skillset in a hurry, but he has more than a few weaknesses that size and strength can't overcome.
Jackelope
8/10/08 5:00:56AM

Posted by JohnnyNapalm

Heath's face resembled Hamburger Helper at the end of the fight and his ribs won't be ready for ticklin' any time soon after the knees he absorbed and you have the brilliance to say he was "man humped"?

Good call.

Now tell us how white Kongo is.



Favoring control over finishing your opponent is LnP (/man humping) Making no attempt at furthering your position because you favor the control and GnP you can lay out from side control is LnP. The shots he landed on HH in some instances were big, yes, but it wasn't the kind of ground and pound you see getting the fight stopped. It was the kind of GnP you see laid out on a fighter to soften them up and earn points. Hence, LnP.
MuSh
8/10/08 6:11:55AM
i wasnt impressed at all. yes i was rooting for HH. But the way BL won and his cockiness at the end he still thinks this is WWE. show some class, A-hole; is all i want to say to BL.
bullettdodger
8/10/08 6:31:18AM
Well I agree with you jack, it just really didn't seem that he was concerned with finishing the fight, but merely maintaining the status quo. We all know he has quality top game and control, not to mention beastly strength, and lets face it speed as well. I've really never seen anyone his size move that quick. But Lesnar is still too green. The fact that Herring was able to hang in there for three rounds (and trust me it was painful for me as i was rooting for him) Lesnar had more than enough oppertunities to finish the fight and just maintained for the UD win.
NeaRMisS
8/10/08 6:39:31AM
I was just annoyed that brock wouldn't take any chances at all. LNP 100%. I really wanted to see him punch more when he had him on the ground. He had the back of heath like 3 times in the fight? He never once put the hooks in, and just went straight back to a standard position from wrestling. He needs to try and attempt to finish his fights imo. Looked like he was scared to let it all hang out. Maybe it was the game plan, but overall was disapointed.
Aether
8/10/08 6:53:02AM
I think the LnP was a result of him being terrified of getting caught in a submission honestly. If you look at his previous fights he just goes wild on the guys but it seems like he really wanted to just play it completely safe and get a much needed win over a big name. I also think that he was afraid of being penalized for hitting the back of the head after he was warned. Hopefully we don't see the same thing in every fight.

I also think his showboating was garbage and he has a really bad attitude. He came over from pro wrestling where all of that stupid crap is standard and he doesn't seem to realize that this sport is all about respect. It was a pretty stark contrast with the GSP fight where a true champion showcased an amazing skillset and then got on his knees and bowed to his defeated opponent. I lost a lot of respect for Lesnar, and I kind of want to see him get submitted or KOed. He has potential but he needs to learn LnPing your way past one ranked HW doesn't make you king of the cage. Talking smack in pre-fight interviews to sell tickets is one thing, doing it in the cage or after a victory is classless.
NewGuy
8/10/08 7:51:28AM

Posted by Svartorm


Overall, if they give him the right opponents and build him, he could develop a deadly skillset in a hurry, but he has more than a few weaknesses that size and strength can't overcome.





I agree that the UFC needs to pick Brocks opponents carefully. Allow him some time to continue to learn. They need to give him opponents that he can handle so he can continue to get his confidence up.
mrsmiley
8/10/08 8:24:30AM
I was impressed with Brock.I was cheering for Heath,but I think Brock showed improvment from the Mir fight.

The biggest thing I want to see though,is Brock's chin tested.The guy doesn't have amazing standup,but with just one punch he was able to knock Mir,and herring both on their buts.That's some serious power. I say give him Gonzaga next.That would prove to be a very intersting fight.
nickcuc547
8/10/08 8:26:16AM
whether he was boring or not is arguable, this isn't: He was better than anybody I have ever seen in just their third professional fight. he still looked pretty raw but he took out one of the toughest veterans in the sport, give the man some love.
mrsmiley
8/10/08 8:38:15AM

Posted by nickcuc547

whether he was boring or not is arguable, this isn't: He was better than anybody I have ever seen in just their third professional fight. he still looked pretty raw but he took out one of the toughest veterans in the sport, give the man some love.



Yeah you can't deny that.For only having three fights the guy is exceptionaly scary.
imanidiot777
8/10/08 8:38:35AM

Posted by nickcuc547

whether he was boring or not is arguable, this isn't: He was better than anybody I have ever seen in just their third professional fight. he still looked pretty raw but he took out one of the toughest veterans in the sport, give the man some love.



Yeah really, forget how it was done he beat Heath Herring in only his THIRD professional fight. I think the reason he didn't go for the finish is because he wanted to take no risks and just wanted to get a UFC win under his belt. And for whoever said "look like you've been there before", he HASN'T been there before lol. The raw physical tools he possesses are INSANE. If he can get some experience and learn more stand-up and subs/defense he's going to be a BEAST.
juanez13
8/10/08 9:45:10AM
I was Impressed by Brock.

But I disagree with you, Brock did exactly what he should have done. And that was use his strenght and control to nullify Herrings BJJ, no way should he have played JJ with Herring on the ground, Herring purposely gives up his back (ala Huerta, and him against Nog) because he has very good defence and always seems to be able to escape by rolling into the persons guard, If Brock would have taken Herring's back he would end up on his back, and his corner knew that (every time Brock has mount herring gave his back).... The position he had for most of the fight was good, he couldnt throw alot of big shots because Herring was putting his face on the mat and pointing the back his head towards Lesnar so he couldnt hit him much, he let Herring choose what positon he stayed, on his back or on his knees, either way Brock was winning the fight.

As far as his stand up goes, obviously needs alot of work (alot of boxing), but he's got great raw power and speed, which already make him dangerous, especially if he fakes a takedown and throws a right. Defenately needs sme work on his boxing.

And as far as is celebration went, really dont care much for it, Lesnar is a natural showman and competitor. He still knows how to work a crowd..
The_Metal_Maniac
8/10/08 10:10:49AM
I remember hearing the worlds worst nightmare was Bj Penn on a tread-mill. I now believe that the worlds worst night mare is Brock with jujitsu.
creed3900
8/10/08 10:38:21AM
I completely disagree with what you said about "someone with legit standup skills would have KO'd HH on the feet". HH has fought many good standup fighters (mostly in Pride), and I never saw him EVER get knocked out on his feet because he has a good chin and come back power even when the deck is stacked against him.

I also think it's a bit ludacrous to compare Brock Lesnar's punches to someone like GSP. Look at Lesanr's hands!! They were like almost as big as Heath's head!! The man is freakish, he must cut from around 280-285. If you were him would you be worried about landing "crisp" punches if you could completely overwhelm someone?? Also, Lesnar is a wrestler by trade, not a boxer.
prozacnation1978
8/10/08 10:46:46AM
i was impressed
lesnar is a beast if he can man handle herring
and herring is a tough dude with some more skill, maybe learn the sub game some more, he could be a huge threat for years
their were more than a hand ful of times where he could have finished off herring, overall i am very curious who he will fight next and who would have the balls to face him
lesnar could still fight coleman in dec
but i doubt coleman would take that fight
tdietel01
8/10/08 11:16:33AM
The celebration was a bit uncalled for. bit he may get a gimme cause it was only his 3rd fight. Im also not sure it was LnP as much as not knowing how to finish herring. I think he was afraid to punch hmself out and he really needs more JJ practice. he should have been able to choke him out in the 1st or 2nd
SpiderSilva
8/10/08 11:47:51AM

Posted by Mr_Dead_Sexy

I remember one point in the match where I swear it looked like the keylock was wide open, but he was just using it to hold HH's arm down. And not that I'd expect it, but it looked like arm-triangles were there at a few points.

The thing that really turns me off about Lesnar is his cockyness. He was pushed to the moon and back by WWE. He was the boy there for awhile. So he was kinda used to getting it his way. I'm really hoping Dana doesn't try to market him as the face of the UFC HW division. He's a phenomenal athlete, don't get me wrong, but the arm pumping, laughing, celebratory BS talking he did in the last couple seconds, not a fan. I honestly thought Heath was going to head butt or something when they hugged at the end. I'm not saying that I'm against fighters celebrating a win, but act like you've been there before.

I really want to see Lesnar vs a top notch wrestler before I say much about him. If not a wrestler, then someone with above average TD defense. The HW division is shallow atm, almost the level when we had Eilers and Buentello as serious contenders. Here's my quick synopsis of next possible opponents.

O'Brien - Probably on his way out. This would ensure that.
Cain - Not yet. Guarantee that. Lose/lose for the UFC.
GG - Possibility.
Kongo - I don't think so. UFC will probably try to build him up again.
Wellisch - Maybe.
Coleman - If he heals/doesn't fight Shogun.
The Insane One - Won't prove much. But hey, who else do they have?

From this, Gonzaga looks like the best bet, and what would probably be his toughest fight. Never been much a fan of Kongo. His ground game has been improving, but it's still nothing to write home about.




People talk about giving Brock easy fights I don't think the UFC wants to pay him as much as they do to have him fight cans we all know cain might be on a showdown with brock some day by I say give him Kongo or GG next
npayant
8/10/08 11:51:31AM

Posted by juanez13

I was Impressed by Brock.

But I disagree with you, Brock did exactly what he should have done. And that was use his strenght and control to nullify Herrings BJJ, no way should he have played JJ with Herring on the ground, Herring purposely gives up his back (ala Huerta, and him against Nog) because he has very good defence and always seems to be able to escape by rolling into the persons guard, If Brock would have taken Herring's back he would end up on his back, and his corner knew that (every time Brock has mount herring gave his back).... The position he had for most of the fight was good, he couldnt throw alot of big shots because Herring was putting his face on the mat and pointing the back his head towards Lesnar so he couldnt hit him much, he let Herring choose what positon he stayed, on his back or on his knees, either way Brock was winning the fight.

As far as his stand up goes, obviously needs alot of work (alot of boxing), but he's got great raw power and speed, which already make him dangerous, especially if he fakes a takedown and throws a right. Defenately needs sme work on his boxing.

And as far as is celebration went, really dont care much for it, Lesnar is a natural showman and competitor. He still knows how to work a crowd..



I totally agree with you and disagree with TS. Brock came out with a great game plan to beat someone with WAY more experience...someone who has fought great wrestlers in the past...someone who has fought the top of the top competition. I was totally impressed with Brock last night in only his THIRD MMA fight, beating someone with as much experience as Heath. Almost every hardcore MMA fan I talked to thought Heath would be able to last the first two minutes and then handle Brock with ease. That was not the case in the slighest. Heath could do absolutely NOTHING in a 30-26 domination by a 1-1 fighter.

Yeah, his stand-up needs A LOT of work and his BJJ skills need even more, but come one... give this guy some credit!! The potential is there for him to be VERY dangerous. I just knew there would be a ton a 'butt-hurt' people talking about how they weren't impressed with Brock....blah, blah, blah. It's ridiculous...how many people come in with basically no MMA experience and beat someone like Heath?!?!

Ok, I'm done.
Jackelope
8/10/08 12:06:56PM

Posted by npayant


Posted by juanez13

I was Impressed by Brock.

But I disagree with you, Brock did exactly what he should have done. And that was use his strenght and control to nullify Herrings BJJ, no way should he have played JJ with Herring on the ground, Herring purposely gives up his back (ala Huerta, and him against Nog) because he has very good defence and always seems to be able to escape by rolling into the persons guard, If Brock would have taken Herring's back he would end up on his back, and his corner knew that (every time Brock has mount herring gave his back).... The position he had for most of the fight was good, he couldnt throw alot of big shots because Herring was putting his face on the mat and pointing the back his head towards Lesnar so he couldnt hit him much, he let Herring choose what positon he stayed, on his back or on his knees, either way Brock was winning the fight.

As far as his stand up goes, obviously needs alot of work (alot of boxing), but he's got great raw power and speed, which already make him dangerous, especially if he fakes a takedown and throws a right. Defenately needs sme work on his boxing.

And as far as is celebration went, really dont care much for it, Lesnar is a natural showman and competitor. He still knows how to work a crowd..



I totally agree with you and disagree with TS. Brock came out with a great game plan to beat someone with WAY more experience...someone who has fought great wrestlers in the past...someone who has fought the top of the top competition. I was totally impressed with Brock last night in only his THIRD MMA fight, beating someone with as much experience as Heath. Almost every hardcore MMA fan I talked to thought Heath would be able to last the first two minutes and then handle Brock with ease. That was not the case in the slighest. Heath could do absolutely NOTHING in a 30-26 domination by a 1-1 fighter.

Yeah, his stand-up needs A LOT of work and his BJJ skills need even more, but come one... give this guy some credit!! The potential is there for him to be VERY dangerous. I just knew there would be a ton a 'butt-hurt' people talking about how they weren't impressed with Brock....blah, blah, blah. It's ridiculous...how many people come in with basically no MMA experience and beat someone like Heath?!?!

Ok, I'm done.



To be fair- I complimented the gameplan and more importantly the maturity to follow through with it.

I was one of the guys thinking Lesnar was going to gas out, and he didn't. I also complimented that.

You could say that I'm butt hurt, but I only bring up what I bring up (his lack of JJ skills and stand up skills) as an honest analysis. I give the guy credit and I never said he couldn't mature into a good fighter, but I saw a lot of rookie mistakes in there. Hardly anybody could come in there like Brock could with virtually no MMA experience and win the fight in that fashion. The only people that could do it are people that are freakishly big and strong with great wrestling credentials- like Brock Lesnar. So in that regard he impressed me, but it was nothing we didn't already expect or know about him.

The whole basis of the thread is to show that yeah, he's got the strength and the wrestling (which we knew) but let's not all jump on the bandwagon yet because 1) He didn't show anything that new besides more composure and 2) He still made a lot of rookie mistakes. Like riding the bull and dominating Herring from side control but being unable to maintain full mount because he wasn't putting hooks in.

You're going to have two people in this argument. The people that want Brock to do well so they're hyping up his performance, and the people that don't want Brock to do well so they're picking it apart. Go figure which side I'm on, but I was at least TRYING to be middle of the road by giving him props for sticking to the game plan, having awesome cardio, and obviously putting his great wrestling base to work in there.

Edit: Also, with his ginormous lack of respect at the end of the fight I find it hard to keep my mouth shut about him. If he wants to make fun of a fighter and yank the mic out of Rogan's hands like he's in the WWE then from a technical standpoint I'll make it my pleasure to pick his game apart. Give him a good JJ guy or a standup fighter with awesome takedown defense and I think you'll see what I mean.
shogun7
8/10/08 12:23:28PM
good analysis. i thought brock looked pretty unstopable although i think he def could have stayed busier while in mount and other dominate possitions. Everytime he did deliever punches tho he made herring feel it. If he keeps getting better its going to be very very hard for anyone to beat him. I would love to see match-ups between cain valazquez and shane carwin
juanez13
8/10/08 12:36:31PM

Posted by Jackelope
The whole basis of the thread is to show that yeah, he's got the strength and the wrestling (which we knew) but let's not all jump on the bandwagon yet because 1) He didn't show anything that new besides more composure and 2) He still made a lot of rookie mistakes. Like riding the bull and dominating Herring from side control but being unable to maintain full mount because he wasn't putting hooks in.




Like i said before, Brock and his Corner knew they shouldnt take Herring's back, Herring is like Huerta when someone has their back, its almost impossible to sub them from that position, Big Nog who probably has the best BJJ in the HW division had Herrings back multiple times in their last time and he couldnt sub him and every time it ended with Herring rolling into Nog's guard, Had Brock taking Herring's back the same thing probably would have happened. So he let Herring stay on his knees, which IMO is far from LnP, Brock was working him, and only reason he couldnt finish him is because Herring put his face against the mat and pointing the back of his head towards Lesnar, so Lesnar had to be careful when he threw his punches (at one point Herring complained about a shot to the back of the head, which was pretty clear he was doing it purposely).......

I'm not a Brock Nuthugger, but judging him on mistakes he didnt make is pretty stupid.
Jackelope
8/10/08 12:43:39PM

Posted by juanez13


Posted by Jackelope
The whole basis of the thread is to show that yeah, he's got the strength and the wrestling (which we knew) but let's not all jump on the bandwagon yet because 1) He didn't show anything that new besides more composure and 2) He still made a lot of rookie mistakes. Like riding the bull and dominating Herring from side control but being unable to maintain full mount because he wasn't putting hooks in.




Like i said before, Brock and his Corner knew they shouldnt take Herring's back, Herring is like Huerta when someone has their back, its almost impossible to sub them from that position, Big Nog who probably has the best BJJ in the HW division had Herrings back multiple times in their last time and he couldnt sub him and every time it ended with Herring rolling into Nog's guard, Had Brock taking Herring's back the same thing probably would have happened. So he let Herring stay on his knees, which IMO is far from LnP, Brock was working him, and only reason he couldnt finish him is because Herring put his face against the mat and pointing the back of his head towards Lesnar, so Lesnar had to be careful when he threw his punches (at one point Herring complaied about a shot to the back of the head, which was pretty clear he was doing it purposely).......

I'm not a Brock Nuthugger, but judging him on mistakes he didnt make is pretty stupid.



I'm not dissing the lack of taking rear mount, I'm dissing the lack of ability to hold FULL mount. (which he had at several times through the night) He didn't set hooks from full mount and Herring gave his back out of it like nothing when he couldn't even move with Lesnar in top position. On the contrary I praise Lesnar for not stepping into Herring's guard and favoring side control/top position over rear mount. If Hendo had done the same thing against Anderson Silva we'd likely have a different MW champion right now.

edit: I also noticed Herring complaining to the ref about the shot to the back of the head. I thought that was pretty weak.
Kracker_Jap
8/10/08 12:55:15PM
Realize exactly what we are Analyizing......

A fighter with basically no business fighting at this level, that had size strength and one basic skill set wrestling

He never got rocked, never looked in trouble and never looked gassed

Lesnar won this fight hands down against a fighter that talked alot of shit before the fight.....

Heath is lucky in my opinion that Lesnar didn't pull out the shark slam

sillysnail
8/10/08 12:57:41PM
Lesnar did exactly what someone with very limited mma training and experience would do in that situation. he stuck to what he's good at and showed flares of greatness. i disagree with the idea that his standup sucks, i thought he threw very well calculated shots and avoided being careless when he knew heath was in trouble. i think he could have stood with herring all 3 rounds and won that fight. who cares if his technique isn't perfect, the guy has mega power and is very swift.

the one thing i did find frustrating was the fact that he didn't try at all for that rnc. when someone gives you their back it's not a good defensive position, but lesnar let it become that. there was one point where herring rolled over while mounted and lesnar actually had the hooks in and he immediately pulled them out. at no point did herrings bjj pose a threat and he should have gambled and tried for a submission.

apart from that, the guy has 2 fights in the ufc against quality competition. hes not fighting cans here and with some more training and experience he could easily become a top competitor.
SmileR
8/10/08 12:58:49PM

Posted by juanez13

I was Impressed by Brock.

But I disagree with you, Brock did exactly what he should have done. And that was use his strenght and control to nullify Herrings BJJ, no way should he have played JJ with Herring on the ground, Herring purposely gives up his back (ala Huerta, and him against Nog) because he has very good defence and always seems to be able to escape by rolling into the persons guard, If Brock would have taken Herring's back he would end up on his back, and his corner knew that (every time Brock has mount herring gave his back).... The position he had for most of the fight was good, he couldnt throw alot of big shots because Herring was putting his face on the mat and pointing the back his head towards Lesnar so he couldnt hit him much, he let Herring choose what positon he stayed, on his back or on his knees, either way Brock was winning the fight.

As far as his stand up goes, obviously needs alot of work (alot of boxing), but he's got great raw power and speed, which already make him dangerous, especially if he fakes a takedown and throws a right. Defenately needs sme work on his boxing.

And as far as is celebration went, really dont care much for it, Lesnar is a natural showman and competitor. He still knows how to work a crowd..



Believe it or not I don't agree!
I'll give him his due with his wrestling, he really is a legit top flight wrestler but other than that he did little else to impress me. He had countless opportunities to end the fight and either let them slip past him or simply changed position. No doubt he dominated but I can't think of one wrestler with a good base and 20/30lb on their opponent that wouldn't.
If he had of finished the fight (and pretty much any other HW dominating that much would have) I'd have been impressed, but he didn't. Lesnar seamed content to just sit back and ride out the decision which annoyed the crap out of me.
If he sticks to the L&P style that he used last night I can see the size of the guy carrying him some of the way up the HW ladder but once he gets a guy with a good sprawl and bricks for fists or active guard and he's done.
I know its pretty mean to say but the guy is too old to start training stand up and be any real threat in MMA. He's 31/32 now and even if he trains nothing but boxing for the next year he still wont be much of a threat.
Lesnar's best hope of stringing together some more wins is to become a less active HW version of Sean Sherk.
Also his cocky attitude towards the end of the fight showed no class at all. He basically used his HUGE weight advantage to lay ontop of Herring for the majority of the fight then chose to rip on him in the last few seconds of the final round and still managed to get caught with a few shots as Herring was getting to his feet. I understand it was his first win in the UFC but that was classless.

If Brock was 5 years younger he would with out doubt be one of if not the hottest up and coming prospect in MMA, but I think last night and maybe his next fight will be his peak in the MMA world. Theirs noway he'll retain the same speed, athleticism and drive into his late thirties and with all his injures from pro wrestling, football and college wrestling he isn't likely to last to Randy's age in MMA.
Thats not even the worst thing about their fight last night... I picked Herring to win! Thats the real reason I'm not impressed with him!!
MikeyMikeMichaels
8/10/08 1:20:16PM
Brock is new and is still going to make mistakes for awhile

He is the best wrestler hands down that MMA has ever seen and that's including the likes of Matt Hughes, Randy Couture, and Dan Henderson.

I am sick of everyone dissing wrestlers for the Lay N Prey style. It's a good beginner strategy for wrestlers. Look at how well rounded Koshcheck is now, and he is nowhere near Brock's level. If you know how to wear down and control an opponent like a world class wrestler does, then I say do it. Just because it's not exciting to watch and happends to be the way that your oh so mighty BJJ practitioners can be beaten , does not make it a non-legitimate style. Lay N Prey to me is the grappling equivelent of counter punching a striker(Would you diss Machida's style or consider him nonlegit?). You are taking away all their technique and skill and controlling the situation. Do I enjoy lay N prey fights, NO, but having the background of wrestling my self I believe that it's smart. Especially if you're a big guy with a lot of weight. Why is that such a sin to use? No one bitches about guys with extreme speed , or guys with crazy flexibility such as BJ Penn using those to their advantage so what's wrong with using weight?

Bottom line: You use the tools that you have to win the fight. Brock did exactly that. Why fault him for it. If he had great BJJ then he would have attempted more submissions and guess what HE DEFINATELY WOULD HAVE GOTTEN THEM, but he isn't at that level yet. As far as his striking, it improved as far as how he thows his punches. It's still bad, but hey he knocked two talented, experienced fighters on their asses in one punch didn't he. I think the Lesnar haters are just pissy because he was a pro wrestler and to some people thats like being an ex-convict when it comes to athletes for some reason. BROCK IS NEW, HE IS GOING TO MAKE MISTAKES, HE IS STILL LEARNING, HE iS IMPROVING but guess what? HE'S WHOOPING THAT ASS with low level tools, other than wrestling, his cardio is great, his chin is still questionable, but he is only going to get better. To all the haters that look for any excuse to dismiss him as legit. GET OVER IT, AND JUST ENJOY THE SHOW.
juanez13
8/10/08 1:37:25PM

Posted by SmileR


Posted by juanez13

I was Impressed by Brock.

But I disagree with you, Brock did exactly what he should have done. And that was use his strenght and control to nullify Herrings BJJ, no way should he have played JJ with Herring on the ground, Herring purposely gives up his back (ala Huerta, and him against Nog) because he has very good defence and always seems to be able to escape by rolling into the persons guard, If Brock would have taken Herring's back he would end up on his back, and his corner knew that (every time Brock has mount herring gave his back).... The position he had for most of the fight was good, he couldnt throw alot of big shots because Herring was putting his face on the mat and pointing the back his head towards Lesnar so he couldnt hit him much, he let Herring choose what positon he stayed, on his back or on his knees, either way Brock was winning the fight.

As far as his stand up goes, obviously needs alot of work (alot of boxing), but he's got great raw power and speed, which already make him dangerous, especially if he fakes a takedown and throws a right. Defenately needs sme work on his boxing.

And as far as is celebration went, really dont care much for it, Lesnar is a natural showman and competitor. He still knows how to work a crowd..



Believe it or not I don't agree!
I'll give him his due with his wrestling, he really is a legit top flight wrestler but other than that he did little else to impress me. He had countless opportunities to end the fight and either let them slip past him or simply changed position. No doubt he dominated but I can't think of one wrestler with a good base and 20/30lb on their opponent that wouldn't.
If he had of finished the fight (and pretty much any other HW dominating that much would have) I'd have been impressed, but he didn't. Lesnar seamed content to just sit back and ride out the decision which annoyed the crap out of me.
If he sticks to the L&P style that he used last night I can see the size of the guy carrying him some of the way up the HW ladder but once he gets a guy with a good sprawl and bricks for fists or active guard and he's done.
I know its pretty mean to say but the guy is too old to start training stand up and be any real threat in MMA. He's 31/32 now and even if he trains nothing but boxing for the next year he still wont be much of a threat.
Lesnar's best hope of stringing together some more wins is to become a less active HW version of Sean Sherk.
Also his cocky attitude towards the end of the fight showed no class at all. He basically used his HUGE weight advantage to lay ontop of Herring for the majority of the fight then chose to rip on him in the last few seconds of the final round and still managed to get caught with a few shots as Herring was getting to his feet. I understand it was his first win in the UFC but that was classless.



What! i dont believe it! camp member disagreeing with me!!!!

I dont get what you mean chances to finish the fight, Herring is probably in the top 5 hardest fighters to finish. It would be stupid for Brock to take Herring's back, Nog, the best BJJ heavyweight in the world has only been able to sub once and he tried as many subs as you could think of!....Brock going for a submission would only end up with him loosing a dominant position. It was Herring the one that chose to stay in that position, what's Brock gonna do? let him get up? he pushed herring onto his back from time to time but it ended up with herring giving his back again!.....he wasnt LnP, He did all he could with that position, landing heavy knees to the body, and getting some punches, which he could throw to many because Herring was putting his face against the floor and poiting the back of his head to Lesnar Purposely because he knew Brock wouldnt be able to throw much. And about the showmanship, thats who he is, thats what got him where he is!...Is not like anybody did see it coming, with Herring saying in every single interview this wasnt his first Rodeo!
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