BREAKING: Chael Sonnen and Jon Jones named coaches for TUF 17.
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BREAKING: Chael Sonnen and Jon Jones named coaches for TUF 17.
Bubbles
10/17/12 9:53:17AM
Posted by Cooler
At least Vitor beat someone relevant and top 10 at the time, basically a MW title contender fight if Vitor had won which he did. Where else was Vitor going to go? Franklin wouldn't fight Belfort at 185 and chose 195. Franklin had the slight advantage he wanted and still got KTFO, didn't matter.
Silva and Couture are still good wins. You forget that Couture proceeded to win by doctor stoppage the next fight, should Couture have not gotten the belt back if Belfort shouldn't have won the belt in the first place.. err what...
Pillow handed, shitty jiu jitsu defense, no finishing skills against competent top guys other than a win over Stann who also needs to work his sub d...
Well yeah those aren't the greatest of names, good names but not great. Chael lost to the really good guys, so it makes my point more clear that he is overrated. He got to the top of his organizations at one point or two but Fhaels every time he gets there. 27-12-1 now that's a record of a champion..seriously though his lowlight will be his legacy, it's great, check it out on youtube.
At least Belfort had something to fall back on, being the former champ of that division where as Chael doesn't have any good LHW wins, and his only LHW UFC fight was a loss to Babalu.
It's silly to be defending Chael Sonnen's shot at the LHW title at all but okay
I wasn't a big fan of Vitor getting the shot either but he was a more credible threat than Cheal will be.
I'm not defending Chael at all for getting a LHW title shot, you are sadly mistaken. I'm pointing out the fallacy in being content with Belfort getting 2 title shots while shitting on Chael for being awarded his LHW title shot.
Franklin was not relevant at MW at the time. He fought Wanderlei at catchweight just before, and prior to that his last 2 fights were at LHW. Again zero relevance to MW title inplications. Was being Hamill and losing to Hendo worth a top 10 spot at LHW??? Vitor could have fought anyone else in the division, he chose not to. Or he could have actually fought a MW after the Franklin fight
Couture kicked his ass the next fight, all but proving that cut loss was bullshit and a technicality on both records. Sure the title changed hands, but Vitor in no way shape or form "beat" Couture by stoppage or decision. By this logic Hamill beat Jones and therefore should be in the title talks for doing so after his recent win.
What non champion has "great wins" rather than only good ones? Sonnen arguably has better "good wins" than Belfort. What "great" wins does Belfort have? You just said that Couture and Wanderlei were good and those are probably his best wins. He may not have the best record but the UFC did employ a champion who's record was 4-1. By your definition, anyone who isn't a champion, or was one, is overrated. I didn't know being #2 in your division is overrated...so what does that say about the MW division and Anderson's legacy??
Chael's pillow fists dropped Anderson a few times, his shitty jitz defense actually stopped all of Silva's attempts prior to that hail mary, as well as Dan Millers and Nate Marquardts attempts. Finishing skills or not, a win is a win. A flash KO means less than dominating your opponent and making him feel weak and useless for the entirety of the fight.
Again Belfort's championship was on a technicality, not by actually winning the fight by conventional means. Ben Askren has more merit of getting a WW title shot than Belfort did as his championship was earned , not awarded. There are only a select few "credible threats" to each champion. The only argument here is whether or not Chael earned it. The only answer is no and anyone who disagrees is an idiot. But if you have followed the UFC at all in the last few years, a good chunk of title shots haven't been earned but awarded. This is nothing new except to bring better ratings to a stale reality show and bring in huge PPV #s.
I'm not here to discredit Belfort as my sole purpose, but to point out the holes in your stance. You try to say Belfort earned his shots by non conventional means but slam Sonnen for basically the same thing. You hate Sonnen so much you can't give him any credit. I hate Anderson more than the next guy, but I can still respect what he has done even though I could try to discredit almost every win on his UFC record
cowcatcher
10/17/12 10:08:13AM
Posted by emfleek
Posted by cowcatcher
C'mon Fleek, you're surprised and upset that a business wants to make money? This move is: 1) going to make TUF relevant again and open it up to a bigger audience and 2) lead to a PPV with a huge number of buys.
I get that people don't like it because Chael is "undeserving", and it's true, he hasn't done a thing to warrant a title shot, except Chael was willing to fight this monster on 8 days notice when guys like Machida wouldn't even do it on 5 weeks. Chael is getting rewarded for being ballsy just as much as he is for running his mouth.
Also, apparently Hendo isn't happy about Chael getting the shot and he tweeted Dana to let him know.
It's also being reported that TUF is being moved to Tuesday nights, which should also help ratings a lot over the Friday night format.
I'm not surprised and can't say I'm really upset. Just disappointed.
I don't look at this as Chael being "rewarded" for anything. sure, it makes for a good supporting argument in favor of the fight but let's be real; the fight was made for monetary reasons. Had someone like Ryan Bader (instead of Chael) volunteered to take the fight on 8 days notice, do you think he would be rewarded with a TUF gig and a title shot? No way.
It was fun with Anderson both times around and the lead up to this fight will be fun as well. I'm just not all that interested in the actual fight.
I can agree with what you said at the end, the fight itself isn't all that interesting, although Chael will probably have a better shot of using wrestling effectively against Jones than others have. The show should be so fun to watch though, and it will be interesting to see which Chael and which Jones show up, or at least how they are portrayed through editing. Guys like Tito have come out of TUF looking way better in a lot of people's eyes, whereas guys like Shamrock or Rampage have come out looking way worse, and this show could do wonders, or be ruinous for Chael and Jones in the fans eyes. But back to the point, yeah the fight isn't exactly something that excites me.
ghandikush
10/17/12 11:48:25AM
Posted by BuffaloDave
Posted by bjj1605
Posted by Goatenstein
Show will be fun. Fight will not. This is desperation on Zuffa's part.
Exactly how I feel.
Chael will make it entertaining because that's what he does. But from a sporting perspective it doesn't make any sense.
We all just watched Silva vs. Bonnar clearly the UFC gave up on making sense
Welcome to the politics and money takeover in matchmaking recently. This is the only org around at the elite level anymore and we get Jones vs Sonnen coming fresh off a mw loss for the title, as if Sonnen was Dan Henderson coming fresh out of Pride.
On the flip side I very much look forward to Jon Jones crying and breaking shit on camera.
crushedbacon
10/17/12 11:52:47AM
UFC has no shame... just whatever at this point hey. I feel terrible for Hendo, he deserves to fight Jones, especially when you consider his age, and his body of work. That fight should have happened. The reality is... people are so dumb.... guys like Chael Sonnen or Lesnar for example could be 1-9 in their last 10 fights and people would still wanna see them fight for the belt or main event cards. But once again UFC, even though they essentially print money.... prioritize making money off low information/knowledge fans over the legitimacy/credibility of the sport.... it's basically the equivalent of just adding the Dallas Cowboys to the NFL Playoffs, even if they didn't actually make it, just because its good for business as a whole... but ya, just think of all the hilarious and exciting promo's Chael's gonna cut over the next 6 months.... Hooray...
Sir_Karl
10/17/12 12:23:00PM
Posted by warglory
Since when has the UFC banked on the logical choice for challenges? Joe Silva has ALWAYS banked on the most entertaining fights that fans want to see, not what the logical next in line choice should be, and Joe Silva is basically a god amongst men when it comes to MMA matchmaking; the man is unparallelled. The heat generated by Chael pushing for this fight, and by Jon refusing to take the challenge, there is instant bad blood, and a contest that people want to see. If Jones handles this right, he can squash the bad blood between he, the UFC and the fans. This is a great choice for redemption for the UFC, Chael and Jones. I think it's a brilliant choice.
Personally I think Joe Silva is a horrendous matchmaker. Do you work for the UFC? Or are you hoping to? lol
iwannabesedated
10/17/12 2:21:25PM
From a TUF and PPV standpoint....OK yeah you'll have great ratings for one season due to Sonnen and Bones.So it makes sense for one season even if they weren't fighting it's still ratings gold....So gold i may actually DVR the season..
The fight makes no sense.I guess i missed the Chael is the new Kenflo memo.Can't win a title in 1 division and then drop or move up to another and get a title shot...But atleast Kenny i think had 1 fight at each weight before getting a shot??
I guess if i call out Bones on twitter and become a loud mouth.above average fighter i can get a shot too.
The fight makes no sense.I guess i missed the Chael is the new Kenflo memo.Can't win a title in 1 division and then drop or move up to another and get a title shot...But atleast Kenny i think had 1 fight at each weight before getting a shot??
I guess if i call out Bones on twitter and become a loud mouth.above average fighter i can get a shot too.
prozacnation1978
10/17/12 2:27:29PM
I don't mind it abit just cause April 27th ppv I can go to next year
bjj1605
10/17/12 3:30:14PM
Posted by cowcatcher
Chael will probably have a better shot of using wrestling effectively against Jones than others have.
Better? Maybe. But still completely futile.
I can't disagree with what you said outright because you said "than others." Clearly Chael has a better shot of using wrestling than Shogun, Machida, Vera, Bonnar, ect.
But when guys like Ryan Bader and Rashad Evans couldn't use their wrestling against Jones, I have no reason to believe that a smaller wrestler will be able to.
So.....
"Others" chance of using wrestling effectively: 1 out of 100.
Chael's chance of using wrestling effectively: 2 out of 100.
Better.
Bubbles
10/17/12 4:03:59PM
I barely remember Rashad even legitimately trying to take Jones down. Sonnen's gameplan is just like Fitch, take you down and grind you for 15 minutes (or longer). He won't let Jones dictate the pace of the fight and I still question Jones' cardio in a more uptempo fight that lasts a few rounds. Chael's likelihood of winning is minimal, but he will bring a completely different style to the Octagon. When was the last time Jones didn't dictate the fight?
Cooler
10/17/12 5:23:25PM
This discussion should be wrapped up, I really don't think my post warranted these long responses but here we go.
Actually that is what your doing. I didn't bring Vitor up you did, and you did it to defend Chael lol the irony of your post. And I never said I was okay with Vitor getting title shots just playing devil's advocate. But the way the situations worked out, Vitor was the only guy on short notice for Jones and he was a former LHW champ so it didn't sound that strange of a replacement, certainly a more competant and reasonable replacement than Chael I cant win a belt or stop a triangle Sonnen. Vitor was a credible threat to Anderson and beat the former champ of the division to get that fight and lots of people wanted to see Anderson vs strikers for the past few years. We could continue to split hairs but that's the situation, you don't have to like it, just like how I hated Brock Lesnar when they gave him a title shot at 2-1 but I dealt with it.
He was relevant to the division just not to Anderson, there's a big difference. And I already said that 195 is barely different than 185, I already said that Franklin had his 10lb advantage over Vitor and still got ktfo, yet you still bring that up.
Couture should get his title back from doctor stoppage but Vitor shouldn't....Speaking of logical fallacies....
Another logical fallacy, this time it's an equivocation fallacy, I called Chael overrated for specific reasons not because I think anyone who isn't a champ or was one is overrated, that doesn't even make sense to anything I said, maybe you should stop smoking so much weed. Bottom line is Randy and Wandy are better to have on your resume than Marquardt and Bisping that's for sure.
The fact that you call it a hail mary makes me want to puke all over my screen.
And cmon, I enjoy fights not Lay and Pray circle jerking with no passing guard or attempting to go for significant strikes or subs, most of the time Chael just sits in guard and pitter patters enough to not get stood up, I wish Fernando Yamasaki would ref a Chael Sonnen fight we would actually see an exciting Chael fight for once.
I wouldn't care of Ben Askren gave GSP a taste of his own LnP medicine.
You that high? I don't have a stance on Belfort I was playing devil's advocate (if you even know what that means) YOU'RE the one in thread who brought up Vitor at all and it was solely to discredit him and tell us how much you think he didn't deserve anything, I was talking about Chael and you switched scopes. Thanks but try being honest next time, k, bye I gotta do errands....
Posted by Bubbles
I'm not defending Chael at all for getting a LHW title shot, you are sadly mistaken. I'm pointing out the fallacy in being content with Belfort getting 2 title shots while shitting on Chael for being awarded his LHW title shot.
Actually that is what your doing. I didn't bring Vitor up you did, and you did it to defend Chael lol the irony of your post. And I never said I was okay with Vitor getting title shots just playing devil's advocate. But the way the situations worked out, Vitor was the only guy on short notice for Jones and he was a former LHW champ so it didn't sound that strange of a replacement, certainly a more competant and reasonable replacement than Chael I cant win a belt or stop a triangle Sonnen. Vitor was a credible threat to Anderson and beat the former champ of the division to get that fight and lots of people wanted to see Anderson vs strikers for the past few years. We could continue to split hairs but that's the situation, you don't have to like it, just like how I hated Brock Lesnar when they gave him a title shot at 2-1 but I dealt with it.
Posted by Bubbles
Franklin was not relevant at MW at the time. He fought Wanderlei at catchweight just before, and prior to that his last 2 fights were at LHW. Again zero relevance to MW title inplications. Was being Hamill and losing to Hendo worth a top 10 spot at LHW??? Vitor could have fought anyone else in the division, he chose not to. Or he could have actually fought a MW after the Franklin fight
He was relevant to the division just not to Anderson, there's a big difference. And I already said that 195 is barely different than 185, I already said that Franklin had his 10lb advantage over Vitor and still got ktfo, yet you still bring that up.
Posted by Bubbles
Couture kicked his ass the next fight, all but proving that cut loss was bullshit and a technicality on both records. Sure the title changed hands, but Vitor in no way shape or form "beat" Couture by stoppage or decision. By this logic Hamill beat Jones and therefore should be in the title talks for doing so after his recent win.
Couture should get his title back from doctor stoppage but Vitor shouldn't....Speaking of logical fallacies....
Posted by Bubbles
What non champion has "great wins" rather than only good ones? Sonnen arguably has better "good wins" than Belfort. What "great" wins does Belfort have? You just said that Couture and Wanderlei were good and those are probably his best wins. He may not have the best record but the UFC did employ a champion who's record was 4-1. By your definition, anyone who isn't a champion, or was one, is overrated. I didn't know being #2 in your division is overrated...so what does that say about the MW division and Anderson's legacy??
Another logical fallacy, this time it's an equivocation fallacy, I called Chael overrated for specific reasons not because I think anyone who isn't a champ or was one is overrated, that doesn't even make sense to anything I said, maybe you should stop smoking so much weed. Bottom line is Randy and Wandy are better to have on your resume than Marquardt and Bisping that's for sure.
Posted by Bubbles
Chael's pillow fists dropped Anderson a few times, his shitty jitz defense actually stopped all of Silva's attempts prior to that hail mary, as well as Dan Millers and Nate Marquardts attempts. Finishing skills or not, a win is a win. A flash KO means less than dominating your opponent and making him feel weak and useless for the entirety of the fight.
The fact that you call it a hail mary makes me want to puke all over my screen.
And cmon, I enjoy fights not Lay and Pray circle jerking with no passing guard or attempting to go for significant strikes or subs, most of the time Chael just sits in guard and pitter patters enough to not get stood up, I wish Fernando Yamasaki would ref a Chael Sonnen fight we would actually see an exciting Chael fight for once.
Posted by Bubbles
Again Belfort's championship was on a technicality, not by actually winning the fight by conventional means. Ben Askren has more merit of getting a WW title shot than Belfort did as his championship was earned , not awarded. There are only a select few "credible threats" to each champion. The only argument here is whether or not Chael earned it. The only answer is no and anyone who disagrees is an idiot. But if you have followed the UFC at all in the last few years, a good chunk of title shots haven't been earned but awarded. This is nothing new except to bring better ratings to a stale reality show and bring in huge PPV #s.
I wouldn't care of Ben Askren gave GSP a taste of his own LnP medicine.
Posted by Bubbles
I'm not here to discredit Belfort as my sole purpose, but to point out the holes in your stance. You try to say Belfort earned his shots by non conventional means but slam Sonnen for basically the same thing. You hate Sonnen so much you can't give him any credit. I hate Anderson more than the next guy, but I can still respect what he has done even though I could try to discredit almost every win on his UFC record
You that high? I don't have a stance on Belfort I was playing devil's advocate (if you even know what that means) YOU'RE the one in thread who brought up Vitor at all and it was solely to discredit him and tell us how much you think he didn't deserve anything, I was talking about Chael and you switched scopes. Thanks but try being honest next time, k, bye I gotta do errands....
crushedbacon
10/17/12 5:46:39PM
Posted by Bubbles
I barely remember Rashad even legitimately trying to take Jones down. Sonnen's gameplan is just like Fitch, take you down and grind you for 15 minutes (or longer). He won't let Jones dictate the pace of the fight and I still question Jones' cardio in a more uptempo fight that lasts a few rounds. Chael's likelihood of winning is minimal, but he will bring a completely different style to the Octagon. When was the last time Jones didn't dictate the fight?
I would say Jon Jones isn't the kinda guy you just "take down". Rashad knew that. Chael's not gonna dictate this fight, he's gonna get that double leg shrugged off with ease and then picked apart with elbows and jabs that are coming from another zip code. Sonnen will bring the same predictable style he brings to every single fight he's ever been in. Jones Round 1 TKO.
Poor_Franklin
10/17/12 5:58:02PM
im going to watch. i think the matchup in the octagon is dumb as shit but on the show, it makes perfect sense.
do the coaches really have to fight each other?
cant they both coach, talk shit, & set up a grudge match down the road if it is earned? or am i just being too unrealistic?
do the coaches really have to fight each other?
cant they both coach, talk shit, & set up a grudge match down the road if it is earned? or am i just being too unrealistic?
Bubbles
10/17/12 8:24:17PM
Posted by Cooler
....his side of argument .....
I could go back and point where you're wrong but I guess Cooler is never wrong. Have fun with these "errands"
Bubbles
10/17/12 8:30:15PM
Posted by crushedbacon
Posted by Bubbles
I barely remember Rashad even legitimately trying to take Jones down. Sonnen's gameplan is just like Fitch, take you down and grind you for 15 minutes (or longer). He won't let Jones dictate the pace of the fight and I still question Jones' cardio in a more uptempo fight that lasts a few rounds. Chael's likelihood of winning is minimal, but he will bring a completely different style to the Octagon. When was the last time Jones didn't dictate the fight?
I would say Jon Jones isn't the kinda guy you just "take down". Rashad knew that. Chael's not gonna dictate this fight, he's gonna get that double leg shrugged off with ease and then picked apart with elbows and jabs that are coming from another zip code. Sonnen will bring the same predictable style he brings to every single fight he's ever been in. Jones Round 1 TKO.
I'm not saying it will be easy but every fighter has let Jones get his feet settled and find his range...then its game over. Once the ref says "fight" Chael will be the first to the center and try to push the pace. Whether he succeeds or not is a different story. Sonnen brings the same style yet it works most of the time. Jones doesn't have the BJJ pedigree that a Maia or Silva have if Sonnen somehow takes him down. Another thing to consider is that Chael will make you fight out of your element. When was the last time Anderson bullrushed across the Octagon to begin a fight? Pretty much never outside of the 2nd Sonnen fight...and he promptly got put on his back. Now the same thing probably wont work with Jones but Chael will be in full attack mode while Evans was content with getting elbowed in the face from a distance
Cooler
10/18/12 9:33:01AM
Posted by Bubbles
Posted by Cooler
....his side of argument .....
I could go back and point where you're wrong but I guess Cooler is never wrong. Have fun with these "errands"
Well, you could become a Relativist so everyones' opinions are correct
Lucas
10/18/12 10:44:11AM
I dont think sonnen will be able to take Jones down but even if he does and keeps him there i still think Jones will do more damage from the bottom than sonnen will from the top Jones will cut him open with elbows.
Lucas
10/18/12 10:53:29AM
Posted by cowcatcher
Posted by Lucas
Sorry but sonnen is nothing but annoying in my eyes so to have to listen to him week after week talk about what he's going to do to Jones only to get an absolute beat down come fight Time does not interest me in the slightest.
To put it into perspective its no different to having a tuf with bisbing and Silva as coaches and listening to bisping talk week after week how he can beat Silva before getting ko within a minute come fight time
Except that Sonnen is great at trash talking and Bisping is terrible. I can understand why someone that isn't a fan of Chael or doesn't find his trash talking amusing would not like this move though, but I personally find him hilarious and he is the undisputed king of MMA one liners.
I don't mind Chael being a coach on tuf even though i don't like him because i don't like Jones either but normally on TUF when the coaches have banter i can't wait for the fight to see who wins. I don't care what anyone else says sonnen is going to go an absolute beat down so i already know whats going to happen so am not excited about it. Let Sonnen coach opposite someone he has a chance against then i would find the banter more interesting
george112
10/18/12 10:55:53AM
It wouldnt surprise me in the least to see Jones be the one to take Sonnen down.
IMO Jones is just as good if not better a wrestler then Sonnen.
Sonnen holds absolutely no advantage in this fight imo
IMO Jones is just as good if not better a wrestler then Sonnen.
Sonnen holds absolutely no advantage in this fight imo
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