Big Nog has mexican boxer syndrome? CAN BE CURED!!!

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NatedawgThaM
2/26/10 11:58:55AM
IMO Big Nog is far from done, he just needs to get technically right. I mean his boxing offense is great but his defense after he throws isn't as good as it could be IMO he reminds me alot of those great legendary mexican boxers who always went to war, but like Nog they blocked punches with their chin and it takes a toll towards the later stages of your career and then you start getting KO'd when you wouldn't have maybe earlier in your career. I think if he touched up his boxing defense he could still make it back to the top.

The proof to prove my theory of course comes from his fight videos. In the Heath herring fight he dominated Herring and beat him up I think the whole fight besides the one time when he left his guard down like I'm saying and Herring nailed him with that head kick. Watch him stand with Big Timmy, he got dropped multiple times, great fight but I think if he learned to parry and block after he throws I don't think he would have gotten dropped that much. Also the Frank Mir fight, if this was younger Nog I think he would have beaten Frank but like I said those wars have taken it's toll and Frank Mir's stand up is freakin beastly right now so I know the staph played it's roll but I think what I'm saying had a little something to do with it too. The Randy fight, Randy doesn't have the power to KO you so he was able to still walk through his punches and use his great boxing offense to beat on Randy. But then he faced a young beast like Cain with power and got dropped.

I don't think he's done because he was taking it to Cain on the feet IMO but his lack of defense got him drilled by that vicious combo and after all them wars you just can't block punches with your chin anymore. I definitely don't think he's done, I just think he should touch up his boxing and we'll see Nog still do some great things to come. He's only 33 but those wars take a toll but he's still got it offensively and he's still in great shape, just needs to touch up that defense! Anyways thats my opinion.

Thoughts?
emfleek
2/26/10 12:00:59PM

Posted by NatedawgThaM

I don't think he's done because he was taking it to Cain on the feet



Maybe I need to watch the fight again, but I don't remember him "taking it to Cain" at all. If memory serves me correctly, and it may not, I remember Cain being the one that was taking it to Nog.
NatedawgThaM
2/26/10 12:20:07PM
Taking it too him doesn't neccessarly mean Nog was winning, but he wasn't losing badly either. I think nog took it to Cain like Kos took it to Alves. It might have been a losing effort, but it will still competitive and Nog gave what he got, he just got caught being sloppy.

EDIT- it was very competitive and close IMO. I think if Nog's chin held up this would have been an all time classic like Randy/Nog. but everyones entitled to their opinion.
postman
2/26/10 12:40:15PM
My advice for Big Nog would be do what you do get it to the floor and finish the fight.
DosBox
2/26/10 1:10:39PM

Posted by NatedawgThaM

Taking it too him doesn't neccessarly mean Nog was winning, but he wasn't losing badly either. I think nog took it to Cain like Kos took it to Alves. It might have been a losing effort, but it will still competitive and Nog gave what he got, he just got caught being sloppy.

EDIT- it was very competitive and close IMO. I think if Nog's chin held up this would have been an all time classic like Randy/Nog. but everyones entitled to their opinion.



According to the stats, Nog was being out-landed in every aspect of the fight.

Nog-Cain fight stats

Do I think that if Nog uses head movement/footwork that I think he will be better? Of course, but honestly that is probably more easier said than done.
Habit is very hard to break. You could that case for any fighter in the world (If Cro Cop touched up on his BJJ he would submit people... etc..)

I would agree that Nog took it to Cain like Kos took it to Alves, and if the fight would have played out like it was on the fight then Cain would have won a 30-27 Decision.
Alves-Kos Stats

Granted that Koscheck was putting up a fight, but it was clear who was winning the exchanges. Same in the Velasquez/Nogueira fight if it would have gone longer (that is if you consider the first 2 minutes to be any indication - which isnt always the case).

I think the biggest detriment to Nog in his fight with Cain is the lack of speed compared to Cain. Cain fired of first, and fired off the fastest, and fired off in volume, Nog would not have benefited getting into a firefight with Cain because Cain fired off his punches first.

Nogueira just touching up on his boxing defence is an ideal solution, but if he hasnt really learned to apply more fine tuning in his boxing defence after 40+ fights, I do not know if it would ever happen, considering that he appears to be a bit slower (in terms of speed/agility/etc) than in his past fights.


Can it theoretically be cured? Sure.
Will it be cured? Even if he touches up on it? I think he would by default always touch up on his boxing defense in training considering his training partners Anderson Silva and his brother.
I just do not think it will be cured in application to practice (practice as in using it effectively in a fight).
Giant_Ochai
2/26/10 1:13:06PM
Brain damage can't be cured. Nog's reflexes are nonexistent compared to the Nog of PRIDE. His chin is gone too. Sorry pal, Nog's a shot fighter.
grappler0000
2/26/10 1:42:37PM

Posted by NatedawgThaM

Taking it too him doesn't neccessarly mean Nog was winning...



Actually, that's exactly what it's supposed to mean. Unless you were implying he was taking something other than an ass kicking to him...perhaps he was taking his chin on a silver platter to him?
NatedawgThaM
2/26/10 1:57:06PM
Were getting off topic. I don't know why people got to pick little things off and prove them wrong just because it gives them some sick satisfaction to prove me wrong and they just get away from the whole point of the thread. You guys were acting like it was totally one sided, or a beatdown. Nog was landing too and was always coming forward. It's not like Cain had him against the cage and was just pounding on him the whole time like alot of you are trying to make it seem like. Yeah Cain won exchanges but Nog still made it competitive.

^ Grappler that's the whole fn point of this topic, Nog just walking in and blocking punches with his chin and it taking a toll now on his career. And how Nog could maybe do better if he touched up his defense.

It doesn't matter who was ****** winning, Nog lost god damn you guys are acting like I'm trying to say different. I'm just saying their's room for improvement.
emfleek
2/26/10 2:02:55PM

Posted by NatedawgThaM

Were getting off topic. I don't know why people got to pick little things off and prove them wrong just because it gives them some sick satisfaction to prove me wrong and they just get away from the whole point of the thread. You guys were acting like it was totally one sided, or a beatdown. Nog was landing too and was always coming forward. It's not like Cain had him against the cage and was just pounding on him the whole time like alot of you are trying to make it seem like. Yeah Cain won exchanges but Nog still made it competitive.

^ Grappler that's the whole fn point of this topic, Nog just walking in and blocking punches with his chin and it taking a toll now on his career. And how Nog could maybe do better if he touched up his defense.

It doesn't matter who was ****** winning, Nog lost god damn you guys are acting like I'm trying to say different. I'm just saying their's room for improvement.



You made a statement and people are offering differing opinions. If you can't accept that without flipping your lid, I'd suggest doing something else with your time.
NatedawgThaM
2/26/10 2:07:22PM
That was one stupid little sentence that had nothing to do with the whole point of the thread. I already replied to you and told you everybodys entitled to their opinion. Nobodys even replying about the thread purpose, just at you picking at my one little sentence that you put out there.
emfleek
2/26/10 2:20:57PM

Posted by NatedawgThaM

That was one stupid little sentence that had nothing to do with the whole point of the thread. I already replied to you and told you everybodys entitled to their opinion. Nobodys even replying about the thread purpose, just at you picking at my one little sentence that you put out there.



If it had nothing to do with the thread or topic at hand, remove it. Once you do that, I'll remove the posts that seem to be offending you.
seanfu
2/26/10 2:44:46PM
nog is done at the top levels. He's been badly hurt or losing in all his UFC appearances except 1. Herring basically knocked him out. Tim rocked him several times, Mir ktfo'd him, Randy is old finally, and Valasquez dominated and ended him.

Nog's throws jabs and leaves his chin open. Safe to say his standup is no longer imposing on anyone. His ground is really unmatched and his chin should be better on the ground. But his wrestling is not impressive. Nog fails.

Not "mexican boxer" syndrome, "Forrest Griffin, only worse", syndrome.
chickmagnet
2/26/10 3:10:39PM
Nogs had a very long career, hes been the champ, of both Pride and the UFC, hes been the only man to do that. However, your brain can only take so much punishment. He has taken plenty of hits in his career and its caught up to him. Im afraid that Nog wont be the same fighter he was in Pride. The problem wasnt his technique, it wasnt his strategy, its the fact that fighting has aged him drastically. Nog doesnt look like a man in his mid 30s, he looks ten years older.

With fighting, you can only take so much. This was simply a changing of the guard. Cain is a young, tough up and coming fighter and this was his breakthrough fight.

This reminds me alot of when Rashad beat Chuck Liddell. When you have been hit many times you lose a sense of distance and range, the same scenario happened with Chuck.

Im a huge fan of Nog and I think he has some great fights left in him, but Im not sure if he will be able to compete at the highest level again.
DosBox
2/26/10 3:41:36PM

Posted by NatedawgThaM

Nobodys even replying about the thread purpose, just at you picking at my one little sentence that you put out there.



I thought I at least touched up on the purpose in my initial post, but I will definitely try to be more thorough in this post.

I believe you are arguing that Nogueira blocks punches with his face, and that if he touches up on his boxing defense, he will cure himself from this "mexican boxer syndrome".

My argument is, couldnt you say that about every fighter though? For example, if Kongo just touches up on his ground defense he would not get destroyed when his back touches the mat? Or, if I simply just worked on my kickboxing, BJJ, wrestling techniques... wouldnt I be able to be better? Surely, but I would assume that there would be a limit to what I could achieve (which is why some people who train, touch up, practice BJJ people defeat other people who train, touch up, and practice BJJ all day long).

I think you are making a theoretical argument in Nogueira's case - and not a practical one.

Do we know that Nogueira can just apply better technical defensive boxing into his standup?

If Nogueira has been training standup with Anderson Silva, his brother, Dos Santos, and other trainers - fighters over the years... wouldn't you think that he has been taught on how to apply boxing defense in his fights? And if he is not able to really apply what he is taught, then can his "mexican boxer syndrome" really be cured? Even though he has not shown much in the way of head movement, etc... does this mean that by just touching up on this attribute that he would be able to effectively apply this into his fights?

Im not trying to bust you at all, I am just trying to understand your argument a little better, which is why I usually have to breakdown your argument in little sentences at a time.


Another question on what you said

I definitely don't think he's done, I just think he should touch up his boxing and we'll see Nog still do some great things to come.


-If he is unable to touch up on his boxing do you think Nog would be considered "done"?

- At this point in time, since he did not use his boxing defense well against Cain, do you consider him "done"? And that he will no longer be done so long as he touches up on his boxing defense?

I think this argument is based on whether or not one believes that Nogueira will be able to just touch up on his boxing defense and apply it to a fight.
And if one believes that he will be able to touch up on his boxing defense that he will reach the top, and if one believes that he will not be able to have the capabilities to effectively use this in a fight... then they come to the conclusion that Nogueira has already peaked as a fighter.

Im sure most of the people on here (whichever side they be on) would have to come to the conclusion where they would have to agree to disagree.
AnDeRsonDaSiLvA
2/26/10 4:13:12PM
Nog did not always block punches with his chin . He used to slip punches very effectively . See the kharitonov fight , who at the time was a better striker then anyone hes faced in the ufc so far . As much as it pains me to admit this , nog does not have the same speed , reflexes or chin . Substitute Nog from today in the first fedor fight and he would of been out cold within a couple minutes , all the punishment has taken a major toll on him.
cmill21
2/26/10 4:27:27PM
The former stars are getting old. Plain and simple. I don't see them making another run for titles. If your best defense is having a good chin, you will lose and it will let you down(talking to you Nick), it's happend with everyone including the monster we know as Mark Hunt.
marcoDGK
2/26/10 4:30:01PM
Big Nog did not do so well in his stand up, IMO. He reminded me of Marcus Jones. He was just putting his arms straight out when Valasquez was throwing his combinations. He clipped Valasquez with a jab right before getting knocked out but before that I didn't see Nog land anything significant.

I don't think Big Nog is "done" but I do think he won't be making a run for the championship anymore. IMO, he has a couple more good fights in him.
telnights
2/26/10 5:07:25PM

Posted by cmill21

The former stars are getting old. Plain and simple. I don't see them making another run for titles. If your best defense is having a good chin, you will lose and it will let you down(talking to you Nick), it's happend with everyone including the monster we know as Mark Hunt.





I think age is just starting to be a factor. The old stars just don't have the same speed/reflexes they had few years ago. That doesn't mean he is done and he is still tough fight for most HWs out there.
BustedKnuckle
2/26/10 5:34:12PM
Wars take a toll for sure. And NOG has been in a lot of them. He needs to shift from all around fighter to get it to the mat and sub' em guy! He is still very very dangerous fighter on the ground. And his striking is good as well. But I think he needs to use it to set up takedowns. he could still be a force in the HW division just with a tweak to the system.
marcoDGK
2/26/10 6:37:55PM

Posted by telnights


Posted by cmill21

The former stars are getting old. Plain and simple. I don't see them making another run for titles. If your best defense is having a good chin, you will lose and it will let you down(talking to you Nick), it's happend with everyone including the monster we know as Mark Hunt.





I think age is just starting to be a factor. The old stars just don't have the same speed/reflexes they had few years ago. That doesn't mean he is done and he is still tough fight for most HWs out there.



I think that is why Randy is so good for his age now also. He has realized he doesn't have the same Speed/Reflexes. That's why he sticks with his clinch, pushing up against the cage and the dirty boxing. Big Nog can still be as much of a treat as Randy is (IMO) If he can realize that he needs to tweet his fighting style a bit. Stick to what gets him the W and stay out of wars with heavy handed fighters. We'll see though... hopefully he bounces back well.
chickmagnet
2/27/10 3:41:48PM

Posted by cmill21

The former stars are getting old. Plain and simple. I don't see them making another run for titles. If your best defense is having a good chin, you will lose and it will let you down(talking to you Nick), it's happend with everyone including the monster we know as Mark Hunt.



Exactly.

Guys like Liddell used to exchange because they could take a shot. Same with Nog, same with Hunt. The brain can only take so much punishment.
Aether
2/27/10 11:40:44PM
Laying on your back and getting punched in the head by Fedor for 40 minutes is likely to cause some damage to your brain.
bjj1605
3/1/10 5:10:23PM
I agree with what most people have said. Damage takes it's toll. Nog is a shot fighter. He'll never make a championship run again.

He should switch to a straight jiu jitsu style because his submissions are still better than nearly every other heavyweight.

This is what we're seeing with Chuck, and Wandy, and a dozen other fighters. Its sad to see and it sucks but fighters age and a new generation replaces them. It's a long and drawn out process because no one wants to admit they're done, but it happens eventually. Even Randy Couture is starting to show signs of aging.
CwB
3/1/10 9:06:27PM
Unless your "CURE" is a time machine I dont think Nog can be cured...
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