Best P4P American Non-UFC/WEC fighter

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POLL: Best P4P American Non UFC/WEC fighter
Eddie Alvarez 3% (1)
Dan henderson 74% (25)
Gilbert Melendez 0% (0)
Nick Diaz 15% (5)
Jake Shields 9% (3)
Josh Barnett 0% (0)
codyq
2/11/10 6:01:22PM
I Picked Jake Shields

Champion in Both the MW and WW divisions. Also Ranked IN BOOTH divisions. Is on a 13 fight win-streak

Holds wins over

-Yushin Okami
-Carlos Condit
-Paul Daley
-Jason Miller
-Robbie Lawler
-Nick Thompson

Has a bout coming in April up against the #2 ranked MW in the world. If he gets a win over hendo, sky's the limit.



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SpiderSilva
2/11/10 6:19:08PM
when Hendo beats Sheilds will you consider him #1? Cause Hendos win list is better than that

Carlos Newton
Big Nog
Gilbert Yvel
Babalu
Renzo Gracie
Murilo Rua
Akihiro Gono
Murilo Bustamante
Kazuo Misaki
Vitor Belfort
Wanderlei Silva
^ all non UFC wins

Rich Franklin
and I will throw Bisping in there cause it was a top 5 greatest KO of all time


On a side note I would like to see Shields in the UFC back at 170
codyq
2/11/10 6:44:18PM

Carlos Newton Big Nog Gilbert Yvel Babalu Renzo Gracie Murilo Rua Akihiro Gono Murilo Bustamante Kazuo Misaki Vitor Belfort Wanderlei Silva ^ all non UFC wins Rich Franklin and I will throw Bisping in there cause it was a top 5 greatest KO of all time


Carlos Newton???? Kidding Right?
Gono????
Bisping??? NO
Franklin??? was a DRAW IMO, still though it was a SPLIT victory
Misaki (Lost to Misaki as well)
NOG (lost to NOG as Well)

Dan's longest win streak came in 2000 where he was 9-0
Longest win streak since has been in 2006 where he had 4 wins in a row

Dan is number 2 on my list.

I just think Shields has been MORE dominant than Hendo.

Hendo is a natural 185'r and shields is a natural 170 lb'r

They both have made a pretty good mark in the game. I just think Shields has Since not been phased. If dan wins of course my pick will be different. Don't be so quick to count out shields though. Hendo has been submitted a few times before. NOW Hendo is facing a guy that can submit you, but also shields can wrestle too. Has dan ever faced a wrestler that is a black belt in BJJ?? I think Sobral but Hendo ONLY won in a split decision in that fight (hendo was ALSO 29 years at the time as well). I got Shields via Sub come April
karn501
2/11/10 6:51:41PM
heeeeeeeeennnnnnnddddddddooooooooooo can't see shields subing him when it took big nog two fights to do it
SpiderSilva
2/11/10 7:49:49PM
if you want to judge those fights like that

-Yushin Okami - Win by DEC
-Carlos Condit- Win by DEC
-Paul Daley- Fighter with almost no ground game(almost all losses are by sub)
-Jason Miller-Win by DEC
-Robbie Lawler-fighter with almost no ground game(almost all losses are by sub)
-Nick Thompson-where has he been as of late?

Really??? if you wanted to go there not 1 of those fighters were a top 10 fighter when he fought them


anyway I like Sheilds myself but Hendo is gonna open a can

if Sheilds wants to fight the best at "170" then maybe he should sign with the UFC hell even 80% of the top MWs are in the UFC
codyq
2/11/10 8:31:55PM
we can bicker about who was ranked when and what not and who had MORE notable wins, guess we will have our answer in April wont we
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warglory
2/11/10 9:11:27PM
I don't see how it can be debated that Jake Shields is the most dominant of this list. He has had some close calls and some boring victories, but the man has the strategy to win and has beaten some very tough guys. Hendo is merely riding his win against Bisping still, but he shouldn't be a p4p fav on this list.
warglory
2/11/10 9:15:10PM

Posted by SpiderSilva

when Hendo beats Sheilds will you consider him #1? Cause Hendos win list is better than that

Carlos Newton
Big Nog
Gilbert Yvel
Babalu
Renzo Gracie
Murilo Rua
Akihiro Gono
Murilo Bustamante
Kazuo Misaki
Vitor Belfort
Wanderlei Silva
^ all non UFC wins

Rich Franklin
and I will throw Bisping in there cause it was a top 5 greatest KO of all time


On a side note I would like to see Shields in the UFC back at 170



You can't count older wins when factoring a p4p list. If this were true, Royce Gracie and Mark Kerr would be up there. Shields has been undefeated since 2005 against mostly credible opponents. Hendo has not.
SpiderSilva
2/11/10 9:28:59PM
Well I was just going along with how he was trying to make his point.hendo has fought better comp in that time span and who are you to say what I can't do?
Pookie
2/11/10 9:49:30PM
Its all about how you define p4p.
Some people like to use hard facts such as wins, streaks, and other such details that can be obviously seen by all to prove how dominant that fighter is.
Others like to dabble in the abstract alleys of their minds and conceptualize the fighters skillset, the expertise of the styles composing that skillset and theorize over how Dominant that fighter is.

Both in the end are just as subjective, even though one is based in facts and the other is based in theory.

My mind is definitely the latter, and after the mulling out process is complete Dan Henderson is by far and large the #1 p4p Non UFC-fighter.

At a natural weight of under 205 the guy's technique is good enough to trump Rampages brute strength in an area Rampage has made the majority of his highlight reels in(clinch grappling).
His chin is damn near uncrackable. And he knows it, which allows him to use his Apache Warchief style of blunt-trauma striking.
On the ground the guy not only is hard to get off of you, but he also grounds and pounds with the best of the sport. A combination you rarely see in MMA.
That and the only people who have subbed him have had a weight advantage and a ridiculously high level of bjj black belt.

In the 3 Areas of the fight game(On the feet, in the clinch, on the ground) he can battle anybody at their strength who is his natural size and fight competitively, 95% of the time winning

Shields the other hand isnt nearly as well rounded -

His top game and transitioning skills on the ground are top notch, though he hasnt shown strong enough takedowns to force the fight there against good sprawls.
His submissions are a threat, but on his back hes nothing more than youd expect from anyone with a Black Belt in BJJ.
He has mediocre defense on the feet, and complements it nicely with spastic hands. Tito Ortiz has a more fluid stand-up game, and a better chin for that matter.
And as far as shields clinch game i cant really comment, he hasnt had to show that facet of his game in nearly 4 years since in that time he has fought nothing but one-dimensional fighters or fighters he should beat stylistically(Condit, Okami). Though Okami is debateable over whether or not he won.

In the 3 areas of the fight game: He is a master at one, mediocre at one, and completely unknown in the last.

He can beat damn near anyone in the world if they try to roll with him, Ill give him that. Id pick him over Jacare even. But other than that realm, i dont see him having p4p skills anywhere else.


Oh, and a FYI alert for those who dont know, Dan Henderson had Pneumonia a week before the fight with Franklin. Right around the time most fighters start to hit their peak.
codyq
2/11/10 10:04:40PM

Well I was just going along with how he was trying to make his point.hendo has fought better comp in that time span and who are you to say what I can't do?


Jake shields has not lost a fight since 2004.

Dan has lost 4 fights since 2004

I dont care if dan has beat more notable fighters ALL TIME.

Since 04' dan has beat a head start towards the end of his career Wandi, who didnt look good in that fight, AND then he beat franklin in a split decision.

Since 04 Shields has beat

Yushin okami
Robbie Lawler
Jason Miller
Carlos Condit
Nick Thompson
Paul Daley

Shields is on a 13 fight win streak.

There are not many fighters right now who are on fight streaks like that that I can think of........

Gegard (15)
Hector Lombard 17 fight win streak
Fedor (31)
Lyoto Machida (16)
Renan Barao (18)
Mamed Khalidov (18)

1 of the 4 of jake shields career losses also in the past was to a guy named Phillip Miller who retired @ 16-0 wih a 2-0 record in the UFC

Just sayin
postman
2/11/10 11:01:00PM
Shields since 07
Win Jason Miller Decision (Unanimous)
Win Robbie Lawler Submission (Guillotine Choke)
Win Paul Daley Submission (Armbar)
Win Nick Thompson Submission (Guillotine Choke)
Win Mike Pyle Submission (Rear-Naked Choke)
Win Renato Verissimo TKO (Punches and Elbows)
Win Ido Pariente Submission (Rear Naked Choke)
Win Ray Steinbeiss Submission (Guillotine Choke)

Who on that list would beat Dan Henderson?

Hendo since 07
Win Michael Bisping KO (Punch)
Win Rich Franklin Decision (Split)
Win Rousimar Palhares Decision (Unanimous)
Loss Anderson Silva Submission (Rear-Naked Choke)
Loss Quinton Jackson Decision (Unanimous)
Win Wanderlei Silva KO (Punches)

I think the question here would be who could jake beat on this list?
I also would like to add I thought Hendo won the Rampage fight.
sbulldavid
2/12/10 1:09:08AM
Just because you get ranked top ten doesn't make you top ten. Jake Shields could be a top ten guy , I don't doubt , but he's never fought a top five guy and he's won fights that were never in serious doubt . If he defeats Henderson he deserves to talk the talk , we'll see .
codyq
2/12/10 1:20:20AM

I think the question here would be who could jake beat on this list? I also would like to add I thought Hendo won the Rampage fight.


All we are doin is speaking facts, not who would do this who would do that.

Jake has not beeen tested since 2004 when he was 25 years of age. Call the jason miller fight a close call but it was a 1 sided victory, "almost" doesn't count, rampage STILL beat hendo in that fight. NO excuses.

Like I said, lets see what happens in April before we go any further.

If I had to put my money on this fight i'd be putting it on Hendo, but I will never count Shields out.
Pookie
2/12/10 1:57:00AM

Posted by codyq


All we are doin is speaking facts, not who would do this who would do that.

Jake has not beeen tested since 2004 when he was 25 years of age. Call the jason miller fight a close call but it was a 1 sided victory, "almost" doesn't count, rampage STILL beat hendo in that fight. NO excuses.



You contradict yourself with the statement earlier that a Split decision victory means less than a normal victory, and yet now you say NO excuses, Rampage STILL beat hendo.


And in a debate regarding the term p4p only half the people involved are speaking facts, the other half are expressing how they feel a p4p ranking should be based on, which is something entirely different. Intuitively understood merit that isnt based on cold rigid facts, but rather Analysis and conceptualism.

In general there are 2 types of way people percieve events. Spotting out the facts and details (which is normally very black and white), and those that spot out patterns (which is very much the gray area and interperative). If you cant have a topic discussion with people who think differently then you, without trying to change the way their discussing the topic, then maybe you need to re-evaluate the way you interact with people.
codyq
2/12/10 2:45:59AM

You contradict yourself with the statement earlier that a Split decision victory means less than a normal victory, and yet now you say NO excuses, Rampage STILL beat hendo.


Then why don't they just say "and the winner is", no matter what the score is, instead of calling it a CLOSE fight rather than a dominant fight. Why not JUST a win? There is no excuse that it was a "split" decision........IT WAS A SPLIT DECISION. That's not an excuse, an excuse would be, rampage totally won that fight, but in reality though, he didn't.

Don't tell me how to debate either.

Why don't we keep all this down until April.

Fair enough?
codyq
2/12/10 2:46:56AM
rampage totally won that fight, but in reality though, he didn't.

*Hendo
Pookie
2/12/10 2:51:54AM
codyq
2/12/10 4:52:01AM
postman
2/12/10 6:12:26AM
Your missing my point the reason he wasn't tested is he hasn't fought the kinda fighters Hendo has. All the guys Hendo has fought on my list clearly are better then who Jake has fought. Your talking about a list of A and B fighters to a list of low B and C fighters. also take a look at the poll Jakes not even #2 on it.
kopower
2/12/10 10:50:28AM
Right now I have to go with Henderson. I do think Mousasi is making a good run though. Give him a few more fights against legit opponents and he is #1.
codyq
2/12/10 3:12:47PM

Your missing my point the reason he wasn't tested is he hasn't fought the kinda fighters Hendo has. All the guys Hendo has fought on my list clearly are better then who Jake has fought. Your talking about a list of A and B fighters to a list of low B and C fighters. also take a look at the poll Jakes not even #2 on it.


I am not missing the point, I have watched both these fighters fight every single one of these guys, these are good fighters shields has fought, they are NO SLOPS, which you are implying. All I know is Shields has not lost in a long time and Hendo HAS. You could say all the what if's you want and that you "THINK" shields would not have won if he faced all those fighters Dan has. Half of the fights jake fought were at WW anyways. Dudes a natural 170 lb'r......Hendo is a 185 lb'r. Shields moved up in weight cause he was not getting tested.
SpiderSilva
2/12/10 3:47:16PM

Posted by Pookie




I was thinkin the same thing
codyq
2/12/10 4:42:55PM

I was thinkin the same thing




Peanut Butter Jelly With A Baseball Bat.

That's what I was thinking...........





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State_Champ
2/12/10 4:50:00PM
Dangerous Dan all the way!
prozacnation1978
3/4/10 12:23:11PM
i gotta go with hendo
more of a vet, and in april we will know why he is p4p
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