what hw has the best jiu jitsu?

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jomatty
2/4/08 8:59:09AM
hey guys the fights featuring mir and big nog this weekend got me thinking about who has the best jiu jitsu in the hw division (not necessarily in the ufc). sylvia ranks big nog number 1 and frank mir number 2 but i dont see it that way. the thing is there are two things to consider, the best traditional bjj and bjj as utilyzed in mma. i suppose they are really two seperate lists. here are some guys that come to mind off the top of my head.

big nog
frank mir
werdum
marcio cruz
jeff monson
gonzaga
roger gracie

im sure their are a lot of guys im forgetting as well. anyways in terms of straight bjj my uninformed ranking would be...

roger gracie (i know he is new to mma but his jitz is incredible)
werdum
pe de pano
nog

as far as who uses bjj best in mma i would say...

Big nog is number one and after that im not really sure.
werdum is great but he seems to like to work off of his back so much and his takedowns do not seem that good. guys like monson who have strong wrestling backgrounds do really well. Gonzaga does a great job of controlling where the fight goes and i could see the way he uses his BJJ being really effective. i havent seen enough from roger gracie in mma to know but he is so technically proficient, and also great on top or bottom that he could do really well. i guess this is the list that i have a hard time knowing what to do with. who do you guys thinks uses bjj the best in mma in the hw division?
atlas777
2/4/08 9:43:53AM
I agree with you but what about A.A. he has pretty sick Jiu-jitsu skills remember his leg lock vs tim sylvia and his arm bar in his first ufc fight i dont remember who its against but he has great JJ hes just really good with his striking also
StevenSeagal
2/4/08 10:51:35AM

Posted by atlas777

I agree with you but what about A.A. he has pretty sick Jiu-jitsu skills remember his leg lock vs tim sylvia and his arm bar in his first ufc fight i dont remember who its against but he has great JJ hes just really good with his striking also



Def Not AA lol as anywhere near top of the list... Just cuz a fighter can snag a leg lock doesnt mean he is a sick JJ practioner. Hell Chris Leben could grab a knee bar if it was right there to grab...
atlas777
2/4/08 10:55:26AM
Andrei does have good jj it was good enoguh not to get submitted by cruz or werdum who are on the top of your list even if he does only use bjj defensively he still has it he may not be up there with big nog and not anyone can grab a knee bar and actually get the guy to tap most of the time the guy gets his face pounded in for going for it.
D0wnUnd6e6r
2/4/08 11:04:36AM
Nog IMO has best JJ in those hw's
mrliquid
2/4/08 11:10:55AM
Werdum performed horrible in the AA fight so you cant really use that towards AA credit he is a sambo fighter wich is composed of striking and some submissions so he is a good submission fighter but big Nog and Mir I think are def the top 2 hw in BJJ Nog pulls submissions out of nowhere and Frank is great off his back.
atlas777
2/4/08 11:22:02AM
In no way did i mean A.A. was the best in the division but i just thought that he at least deserved honarable mention as one of the guys with the better of jiu-jitsu skills imo big nog has the best with mir trailing close behing and if Randy still fought he would be right up there with Nog and Mir he doesnt use his jj to finsh fights but he uses it to avoid others submissions he has gone to world championships and done very well but thats neither here nor there
Rush
2/4/08 11:24:23AM
Is there even a debate? Nog, hands down.
AchillesHeel
2/4/08 11:33:35AM
My (somewhat-educated) guess is Roger Gracie, who went 11-1 in the ADCC Submission Wrestling World Championships. He won the 2005 Absolute Division title with 5 consecutive wins by Submission, over Shinya Aoki, Fabricio Werdum (who had defeated Reese Andy), Xande Ribiero (who had defeated Antoine Jaoude and Gabriel Gonzaga), and Ronaldo "Jacare" de Souza.



p.s. In the UFC, I would call it a draw between Big Nog and Werdum. When they fought, neither guy was even remotely interested in testing the other's jiu-jitsu. Werdum had absolutely no fear of either Arlovski or Gonzaga on the ground.
Trench777
2/4/08 11:39:24AM

Posted by Rush

Is there even a debate? Nog, hands down.



LOL, yeah...the debate should prolly be "Who is the 2nd best BJJ in MMA" really...

To which, I would have to say Frank Mir. Fedor actually has good subs, too. Gonzaga for honorable mention.

Sidenote: I know it will never happen, but I wish they would allow gi's again. Just adds another element to fights & I like it. Guess I just pine for the "no rules" concept that Gracie intended MMA to be *shrug*
jomatty
2/4/08 11:46:06AM
i think that it is debateable, especially if you are considering guys like roger gracie. and just because nog is a better all around fighter than guys like werdum and pe de pano doesnt mean that his bjj is necessarily better.

AA really doesnt belong on this list. he has decent sambo but im talking about bjj practitioners in specific. that is why i didnt mention fedor or barnett even though they have excellent submissions and wrestling. they are great grapplers and utilyze submissions that are also used in bjj but they are not bjj practitioners per se...and even if we were talking all around grapplers AA would not make the list (although im not saying he is not talented on the ground just not cream of the crop).
Rush
2/4/08 12:05:30PM
Well this is a similar debate as to "who is the best wrestler"?

Are we talking ADCC BJJ or gi-BJJ? Or are we talking about BJJ in the context of MMA?
AchillesHeel
2/4/08 12:08:54PM

Posted by jomatty

[...]just because nog is a better all around fighter than guys like werdum and pe de pano doesnt mean that his bjj is necessarily better.


Right. For instance, I think there's no question that Big Nog would defeat Roger Gracie in a UFC match, 95 times out of 100.



Throwing some numbers around:

Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira has won 56% of his 36 fights by Submission Hold (1 win was ruled "TKO - Triangle Choke"), and has never been submitted.

Frank Mir has won 50% of his 14 fights by Submission Hold, and has never been submitted.

Fabricio Werdum has won 36% of his 14 fights by Submission Hold, and has never been submitted.

Gabriel Gonzaga has won 27% of his 11 fights by Submission Hold, and has never been submitted. 1 win is recorded as "Submission by exhaustion", which I did not count, and 1 is recorded simply as a submission, which I did count.

Marcio Cruz has won 20% of his 5 fights by Submission Hold, and has never been submitted.

Roger Gracie only has 1 MMA match, which he won by Submission Hold.
AchillesHeel
2/4/08 12:09:52PM

Posted by Rush

Well this is a similar debate as to "who is the best wrestler"?

Are we talking ADCC BJJ or gi-BJJ? Or are we talking about BJJ in the context of MMA?


"Yes", and "both."
NatedawgThaM
2/4/08 1:08:44PM
Nog hands down. I don't think this is even competitive. Gonzaga is easily the second best but he has no heart. Nog does. He takes a beating every fight and still wins.

IT'S THE NOG ERA!!!! NOBODY WILL BEAT HIM!!!

Besides Fedor, who will never sign.
Jackelope
2/4/08 1:22:56PM
As BJJ applies to MMA fights in the UFC-

Nog
Fedor (Sambo, Judo.. but still submission styles)
Mir
Werdum

Simply based on what they've accomplished. You can't place Gonzaga above Werdum IMO cuz Werdum just beat the living shit out of Gonzaga.

Mir only belongs on the list because he's a former UFC Heavyweight champion, and IMO is the most dangerous BJJ guy off his back. We haven't seen much of him from the top, though.

If you take BJJ and move it away from MMA and start looking at what they've accomplished outside Pride or the UFC well then you've got to consider Gracies and guys like Jeff Monson.
jiujitsufreak74
2/4/08 2:41:39PM
When i answer these types of questions, i look at it as who implements the style best in MMA. in that case it is big nog hands down. although he is sloppy with stand up of late, nog is beautiful to watch on the ground and it is truly amazing and awe inspiring how such a big man can utilize JJ in his weight class. to see him throw submissions from his guard is thrilling to watch ad every fighter besides fedor knows that big nog's guard is not where you want to be. nog has shown great versatility by utilizing such techniques as the anaconda choke (my 2nd favorite submission), armbar, triangle choke, arm triangle, rear naked choke, guillotine, key locks and most recently the guillotine. in his first recognized professional fight he was able to get a submission due to a crucifix, i mean that says it all right there. he has brought JJ to its highest level and makes me proud to have an athlete of his caliber in the style i love.

while the answer to the question is obviously nog, it is the number two spot where i hit a rough patch. i would have to say it is a tie between mir and werdum. now the reason i have to go with mir here is because i am assuming he is back to the shape he was in before the accident where he was just schooling the UFC HWs on the lessons of JJ. he was constantly moving and was very mythotical in his guard throwing up submissions that caught his opponents off-guard (pun intended btw ). in his fight with lesnar i saw signs of his old self. he was keeping an active guard against a wrecking machine in lesnar and threw up two solid armbar attempts and eventually clinched the kneebar to win it. if he is back to his old self he is a fighter to look out for. werdum has always been a great JJ fighter in MMA who utilizes the triangle very well. he was able to choke out aleks which speaks to his skill and made GG scared of his guard. the fight against RZ where he got an armbar and a triangle at the same time was beautiful and werdum has shown such beauy in most of his fights. unfortunately he has not been able to grace the UFC with his submissions skills but the HWs should be wary of his JJ.

Now, i could not pick roger gracie because his JJ is relatively unknown in terms of how he uses it in MMA. GG has great credentials but never uses it in MMA for some reason. pe de pano only has one submission in MMA and monson doesn't really have a great guard as most of his submissions are chokes (if not all of them). AA is not JJ and he only has 3 submissions. AA, Fedor and Aleks are all disqualified form this because they are all sambo. so, i have to go with my rankings as such:

1) Nogueira

2) Werdum

2) Mir (mir and werdum are tied imo but i would give the slightest edge to werdum)
bayonetxwork
2/4/08 5:47:11PM
Werdum has the best jiu jitsu, just not the best jiu jitsu from an mma sense. If you don't agree just check his BJJ track record...
jomatty
2/4/08 7:56:22PM

Posted by NatedawgThaM

Nog hands down. I don't think this is even competitive. Gonzaga is easily the second best but he has no heart. Nog does. He takes a beating every fight and still wins.

IT'S THE NOG ERA!!!! NOBODY WILL BEAT HIM!!!

Besides Fedor, who will never sign.



what makes gonzaga easily the second best? nog being the best is debatable and gonzaga having better jits than werdum or cruz is highly highly debatable...
jomatty
2/4/08 7:59:56PM

Posted by bayonetxwork

Werdum has the best jiu jitsu, just not the best jiu jitsu from an mma sense. If you don't agree just check his BJJ track record...



in a traditional BJJ setting it is clear to me that werdum is at the top...in the context of an mma match i pick big nog but i still think it is close. if you guys think frank mir is good off of his back you need to watch some footage of werdum schooling people from his back in bjj and adcc matches.
jiujitsufreak74
2/4/08 8:55:31PM
I just want to hammer home certain points...

1) Fedor is not covered in this topic because he utilizes sambo not JJ.

2) GG has very good JJ credentials, but they don't compare with those of werdum. especially in the MMA sense he has not come close to showing his true potential and he looked scared of werdum's guard which should tell you something. GG doesn't make top 5 imo in terms of MMA usage. don't believe everything the UFC tries to shove down your throat.

3) Werdum is by far the most accomplished HW in terms of JJ outside of MMA. he holds such titles as the blue belt division Jiu Jitsu World Championship , Jiu Jitsu European Championship, Jiu Jitsu Pan-American Championship x3, black belt division Jiu Jitsu World Championship x 2 , and the 2007 ADCC World Championship which speaks to his current dominance in the art.

4) Big nog imo is the best JJ practitioner in terms of MMA utilization. read my above post for my reasoning.

5) Pe de Pano should not even be in this discussion in terms of MMA utilization because he only has one victory due to submission. his credentials outside are very impressive although his acclaimed tournament wins are very debatable outside of his Abu Dhabi 2000 win because i don't remember him winning what he vaguely described as "world champion of Jiu-Jitsu" 6 times.
hippysmacker
2/5/08 1:28:11AM
Bjj is one thing, and I would have to agree with Achilles about Gracie. As for who applies submission grappling best in MMA , I still beleive it's Fedor. He always slips any sub attempts, and used to pummel em with GnP. However since he broke his hand a couple of times, I beleive he just uses strikes and GnP to set up subs. I think he would still beat NOG, and also Werdum, Roger, Gonzaga, and anyone else known for their jits in MMA. Just my opinion of course
Manfred
2/5/08 2:26:34AM
In MMA: Nog, no question
In pure JJ: Probably Roger Gracie
ikesmith
2/6/08 2:45:29PM
fedor is not jiu jitsu he that means hes not the best i think he's the best at his subbmissions id have to say gracie
tylerlee123
2/6/08 3:43:25PM
Nog, Mir, Gonzaga, and future UFC Heavyweight Contender Roger Gracie
Mayhem13
2/6/08 4:19:54PM
Nog
Werdum
Gracie
Cruz
Monson

my top 5
zephead
2/6/08 5:10:28PM
I'm not seeing to much Jeff Monson love here. This is what he's done with BJJ.


Abu Dhabi Submission Grappling World Tournament Heavy Weight Division in 2005 and also won his division in the tournament in 1999. He is a multiple event winner at NAGA and Grapplers Quest and the Budweiser Invitational


He's also won 58% of his MMA fights by submission
Sledge23
11/19/08 5:14:19PM
You got to go with Gracie, His family did kind of invent BJJ
madmarck
11/20/08 12:42:21PM
Straight BJJ Roger Graice hands down. Multiple medals in both ADCC and Mundials in mutiple weight divisions.

Has for MMA BJJ Nog. Doesnt do any fancy crap. Just straight plain ordinary armbars. But he does em on the best guys.
jiujitsufreak74
11/20/08 2:35:34PM
a lot of JJ topics being brought back up
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