Is Bad Kickboxing the Future of MMA?

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MMAcca
3/10/09 2:22:08PM
Josh Gross:

Perhaps it's too soon to call it a trend, but the lack of submissions during UFC 96 is worth discussing. Saturday's card in Columbus marked the third event in the organization's last six that failed to produce a submission (tapout to choke or joint lock).

Prior to UFC 96, 94 and 92, the last time a UFC card finished submission-less was February 2007, at UFC 67 -- a span of 36 events. Over the course of 94 Zuffa-era UFC events, only eight have failed to yield some sort of submission. That three of those cards took place in the past four months is at a minimum noteworthy, at worst disconcerting.

Just once has the UFC come up short on submissions in consecutive events. Way back when, in 1996, UFC 9 and 10 saw plenty of finishes, just not a tap from a rear-naked choke, triangle, armbar or countless other ways to end a fight via lock or choke. Understandably, that was an entirely different era.


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cowcatcher
3/10/09 2:24:35PM
guys want to finish in a way the crowd will like and it can take them out of their element. im glad guys like aoki and maia do what they do, and its every bit as fun to watch as guys banging on the feet. then again if chicks dig the longball, the casual observer loves the KO.
Jackelope
3/10/09 2:27:27PM
This is what booing fans and crappy standups do to the sport
dangerfield
3/10/09 3:08:32PM
Hopefully with guys like Maia and Hazzlett in the UFC and Aoki in Dream we'll still get to see some great subs. I personally like seeing a great submission over a great KO but I'd recon I'm in the minority there
Wolfenstein
3/10/09 3:18:08PM
As much as I enjoy disagreeing with Josh Gross, he's pointing out what I'v felt for a while now. It does seem like MMA is slowly trying to adapt itself to a format to please fans, which consequentially features more frequent standups. I think even some fighters are lured away from their style by fight of the night bonuses which are usually only handed out to brawling stand up and bang wars. When's the last time you've seen a good grappling match make the fight of the night? What I considered a clear winner for a fight of the night back at UFC 87 was Demian Maia vs Jason MacDonald, but instead it was rewarded to a one sided match between GSP and Fitch.

Unless there's a fighter like Demian Maia on a card, it's almost always safer to go with the TKO.
decken
3/10/09 3:27:01PM
I really dont see how anyone thinks Demian Maia is boring!!! War SUBS!!!!!!!!
McBee
3/10/09 3:34:18PM
man some of these mma "writers" are just gloried sherdog posters, the only thing that could be considered writing is what he quoted from Joss Gross which Iam guessing as an article, great piggybacking bloody elbow, next time just tell us joss wrote a good article and give us the link instead of quoting it and then quoting one of your dumb friends and callng it original.
PABLOMAFIOSO
3/10/09 3:54:15PM

Posted by MMAcca

Prior to UFC 96, 94 and 92, the last time a UFC card finished submission-less was February 2007, at UFC 67 -- a span of 36 events. Over the course of 94 Zuffa-era UFC events, only eight have failed to yield some sort of submission. That three of those cards took place in the past four months is at a minimum noteworthy, at worst disconcerting.
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I dont think that 3/9 UFC events not having a submission finish is even noteworthy let alone disconcerting (Fight night 17 had 6/10 subs!). I like to see good groundwork and submissions but I am not getting worried about the future of MMA!

P.S. 60% of the time I'm right.......every time
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Manfred
3/10/09 3:59:23PM
He makes a good point and I've noticed it too. But like some of you mentioned, there are still some great JJ guys.

I like the guys that are taking it to the next level like Hazelett with the inverted armbar, armbar transition from a whizzer or Palhares with armbars from back control.
Tein_Lung
3/10/09 4:04:58PM

Posted by Manfred

He makes a good point and I've noticed it too. But like some of you mentioned, there are still some great JJ guys.

I like the guys that are taking it to the next level like Hazelett with the inverted armbar, armbar transition from a whizzer or Palhares with armbars from back control.

Its also getting tot he point where people are getting equal on the ground bt not as equal on the feet... I do not remember who said it but i think it was a Gracie who said "evryone is the same size on the ground" which is not to be taken litterly of course but you can see what he ment in it...


I also agree with an above poster that whe people boo it changes the match... NEVER during pride did you hear the crowd boo because they knew what was going on... as a whole the US is retarded when it comes to grappling they don't understand it there for don't like it an boo... i almost think it would be a nice change of pace for the UFC to go back to Japan to hear a quite event and see where teh fights go
The-Don
3/10/09 4:39:18PM

Posted by dangerfield

Hopefully with guys like Maia and Hazzlett in the UFC and Aoki in Dream we'll still get to see some great subs. I personally like seeing a great submission over a great KO but I'd recon I'm in the minority there




I have to agree with you I perfer a slick sub over a KO.. not that I do not enjoy KO's but subs take more skill..
Subterfuge
3/10/09 4:44:00PM
any finish will do for me. Gotta keep it out of the judges hands.
McBee
3/10/09 4:53:46PM

Posted by Subterfuge

any finish will do for me. Gotta keep it out of the judges hands.



this whole thing is kind of stupid because we all know these guys are well rounded and if it gets too focused on striking it will make it easier for sub artist to do their thing. Sub artist have to step up and take it though, if they can not get the guy down to the ground or pull guard or finish people from the back then they need to rethink their game. This is about what wins fights, if this sport evolves into a chuck liddell style cannot get me down so you have to bang with me sport then that is what works and people who do not have those skills HAVE to find a way to break it.

Stand up wars are very unpredictable and risky so true champions like GSP and BJ are so well rounded that they can win fights without risking too much. whether that is striking or mixing between wrestling and striking.

Boo_Radley21
3/10/09 5:23:56PM
It's not the future of MMA, it just happens that way sometimes.
shawneth
3/10/09 6:08:41PM

Posted by Tein_Lung


Posted by Manfred

He makes a good point and I've noticed it too. But like some of you mentioned, there are still some great JJ guys.

I like the guys that are taking it to the next level like Hazelett with the inverted armbar, armbar transition from a whizzer or Palhares with armbars from back control.

Its also getting tot he point where people are getting equal on the ground bt not as equal on the feet... I do not remember who said it but i think it was a Gracie who said "evryone is the same size on the ground" which is not to be taken litterly of course but you can see what he ment in it...


I also agree with an above poster that whe people boo it changes the match... NEVER during pride did you hear the crowd boo because they knew what was going on... as a whole the US is retarded when it comes to grappling they don't understand it there for don't like it an boo... i almost think it would be a nice change of pace for the UFC to go back to Japan to hear a quite event and see where teh fights go



to tell you the truth, I actually find the US crowd quite educated on the ground and always start cheering when someone is getting close to a submission. The only time they boo is when fighters are laying and throwing the odd punch to the body for too long. They boo just as much when fighters are pouncing around the ring shadow boxing for too long too. So i think its more of MMA fans becoming too impatient and wanting constant action
bls1919
3/10/09 6:08:51PM
I see what Gross is saying but with plenty of guys like, Bj, Lister, Maia, Almeida, Horn, Palhares, Fedor, Mir, Nog, gonzaga etc. I wouldnt get worried about MMA turing into just brawling.
kaduey
3/10/09 7:28:20PM
This is BS in my opinion. Josh Gross has always, especially in his Sherdog days, hated on this sport that he "follows". I remember when he used to do his little radio show and make the most snide remarks making it sound like he was above the fanaticism of the mma community. This guy is full of himself and is THE original sherdog fanboy!
IriShame
3/10/09 7:33:44PM
Here's the thing. Back in the day not everybody knew how to defend submissions. Even those who did had a rudimentary knowledge at best. The longer the sport exists the more these things become common place in training. You're still going to have the Demian Maia's and Shinya Aoki's of the world who are going to get submissions but gone are the days of people not knowing how to defend the rear naked choke. I've seen Rich Franklin do textbook escapes from armbars and kimura's like he was a BJJ black belt and he's arguably a standup fighter.

What I'm trying to say is that you can learn to not get submitted, you can't learn to not shut your brain off when it gets smashed by a Rampage overhand right. With Jiu Jitsu there is an answer to every question, a counter to every move. In the case of evenly matched fighters with an equal knowledge base it's going to be easier to get a KO then a Sub and I think the UFC is seeing a result from what is generally very good and even matchmaking.

Is it kickboxing? No. I just think more guys like their chances on the feet.
Wolfenstein
3/10/09 7:44:06PM

Posted by IriShame

Here's the thing. Back in the day not everybody knew how to defend submissions. Even those who did had a rudimentary knowledge at best. The longer the sport exists the more these things become common place in training. You're still going to have the Demian Maia's and Shinya Aoki's of the world who are going to get submissions but gone are the days of people not knowing how to defend the rear naked choke. I've seen Rich Franklin do textbook escapes from armbars and kimura's like he was a BJJ black belt and he's arguably a standup fighter.

What I'm trying to say is that you can learn to not get submitted, you can't learn to not shut your brain off when it gets smashed by a Rampage overhand right. With Jiu Jitsu there is an answer to every question, a counter to every move. In the case of evenly matched fighters with an equal knowledge base it's going to be easier to get a KO then a Sub and I think the UFC is seeing a result from what is generally very good and even matchmaking.

Is it kickboxing? No. I just think more guys like their chances on the feet.



Rich is a brown belt, so you're not that far off.
bootyclause
3/10/09 8:17:14PM
"bad kickboxing" - this is a dumb description given the fact that elite world class kickboxers ALWAYS get their arses handed to them when facing top MMA fighters in MMA. So how can you say MMA is "bad kickboxing" when good kickboxers CAN'T win in big time MMA fights? real dumb stuff.
bootyclause
3/10/09 8:21:09PM
also, the reason i stopped watching pre-game, post-game, Sportscenter, sports talk radio etc - these are angry people that always have to find some problem with everything. Sadly Gross and his old Sherdog buddies are in this group - that was a great show in my opinion then some jerkoff writers have to come in and try to throw cold water on it....F that.
tdietel01
3/10/09 9:02:43PM
mma is always gonna change, fighters evolve, it will go back and forth forever
imanidiot777
3/10/09 9:05:15PM
This is absolutely RIDICULOUS! I am so annoyed by this, you all have no idea. No one was saying anything a few events ago where 3/4 of the fights ended in submission and fairly quickly. ONE event where there are barely any submissions and we get this. Ever hear of a data set? You would need to see this over at least a few events before it wouldn't be an anomaly.
cmb19932
3/10/09 9:15:12PM
the whole problem to me is the stand up if a good bjj player gets you down good now get up if you cant on your own then... guess what watch out for subs the other end is that fighters wanna be entertaining and the fans love stand up wars this is why i have been saying if a serious kick boxing promotion opens in america it will blow mma away
mrsmiley
3/10/09 10:40:52PM

Posted by Wolfenstein

As much as I enjoy disagreeing with Josh Gross, he's pointing out what I'v felt for a while now. It does seem like MMA is slowly trying to adapt itself to a format to please fans, which consequentially features more frequent standups. I think even some fighters are lured away from their style by fight of the night bonuses which are usually only handed out to brawling stand up and bang wars. When's the last time you've seen a good grappling match make the fight of the night? What I considered a clear winner for a fight of the night back at UFC 87 was Demian Maia vs Jason MacDonald, but instead it was rewarded to a one sided match between GSP and Fitch.

Unless there's a fighter like Demian Maia on a card, it's almost always safer to go with the TKO.



Bingo!
Hit it right on the bullseye.

When I think about it I get so sad.
haggiswashere
3/11/09 12:22:33AM
UFC 76 "Knockout" didn't have a single knockout but it didn't mean there would never be another knockout.
Focker101
3/11/09 10:09:00AM
I think it is still just the evolution of the sport

I think right now more people are training more and harder on standup

you can learn some decent stand up skills and some take down defense a lot easier then some good offensive BJJ skills

But I am sure with some great BJJ players coming into the sport now it will start to go the other way again with multiple subs


Starting with GSP Submitting Alves

EliasG
3/11/09 10:20:43AM
I think subconcsiously most guys know that if they want to be in the "big" show they have to entertain. If they want tons of fans---they have to entertain. Right now for the American mostly uneducated fans that means KO your opponent.

Not only do US fans boo grappling, they'll start booing when someone moves to a dominant position, they'll boo when too many low leg kicks are thrown, they'll pretty much boo for everything except wild striking. They LOVE that but it turns out---not so great for the fighter, a little risky.

Most of you guys see it too, especially if you go to a match and have to listen to people make homophobic remarks about the grappling. Most guys have NO idea what they are seeing and can't appreciate the complexity, difficulty, and skill required to control someone who is as strong as you and doesn't want to be pinned down, and then transition from one sub attempt to another. I find it fascinating. That McDonald v. Meie fight was nuts btw. I was like, wow...wow.....whoa. The other half of the time you have to listen to guys talk about their cousin who they saw KO someone in a bar fight who could "beat all these guys."

I wouldn't say that most of the fans are morons but if I was in charge, I wouldn't give most of them driver's licences.
EvenFlow
3/11/09 10:23:42AM
Some people might have too much free time to conjure up downfall conspiracies. Would too many KO's mean the jiu jitsu element is dying?
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