Aldo, Faber, Torres, P4P outside of UFC

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POLL: Can you be a top P4P dominating in a weak division?
Yes 30% (6)
No 30% (6)
WEC hype ftw 10% (2)
Japan is uber cool 10% (2)
Superman still wears Torres pyjamas at night 20% (4)
seanfu
10/1/10 11:57:43AM
Can you be a real P4P top fighter when you put on great performances and dominate spectacularly in weak divisions?

Everyone thought Faber was one of the best in the world including me. Then he lost to Mike Brown twice and Aldo.

Everyone thought Torres was a bottom 5 top P4P then he lost 2 straight and just had a mediocre performance.

Same with Aoki, then against a bottom of top 10 Melendes he was embarrassed.

Now we have a very impressive Aldo smashing guys who are not UFC calibur to begin with. Manny was a near washout from the org when he decided to drop weight.

Can you be a top P4P fighter when you do not fight elite competition in shallow weight divisions?
Jackelope
10/1/10 12:28:07PM
I don't think it's correct to call 145 and 135 shallow divisions.
grappler0000
10/1/10 12:50:08PM
I'd like to participate in the poll, but the wording of the question along with all 5 responses tend to support your own point of view in various ways instead of covering a wide spectrum of views.
seanfu
10/1/10 1:02:19PM

Posted by grappler0000

I'd like to participate in the poll, but the wording of the question along with all 5 responses tend to support your own point of view in various ways instead of covering a wide spectrum of views.



There are yes and no.
seanfu
10/1/10 1:14:03PM

Posted by Jackelope

I don't think it's correct to call 145 and 135 shallow divisions.



No no, I'm calling the WEC's 135 and 145 shallow. If 135 and 145 were all housed under one org they wouldn't be by any means. But 155 in the WEC has Varner Cerrone and Henderson, that's it.

145 has Brown, Gamburyan, and Aldo, pretty much all former contenders have disappeared if that says anything about the champions' reigns.

135 Has a dominant star in Cruz, but Benevidas is a phenominal athlete and extremely exciting but hasn't impressed skillset wise in my eyes, and Faber has yet to make a mark in the division. Torres isn't even in contention right now imo and Bowles has yet to prove his worth against any of these guys except Torres unless I'm forgetting something.

If Aldo were destroy everyone at 135 the division itself I would say he is top 10 P4P but I just always feel like the WEC is trying to worm a fighter into that spot so they can promote themselves.
gartface
10/1/10 2:12:47PM
Jose Aldo is THE best pound for pound fighter in the world. Anderson has shown gaping holes in his takedown defense and susceptibility to wrestling, GSP has been knocked out and submitted by weaker competition, Fedor has been submitted recently and has shown holes in his stand up, but I've yet to see a hole in Aldo's game. He's dominated everyone he's faced in the last five years. The best fight he's had in his WEC career(8 fights) was last night and he still dominated Manny when it came down to it.

Exposure doesn't mean talent. The UFC may have more exposure for their fighters, but WEC has brought in the best 135 and 145 pounders, for the most part, and that sets the bar really high for these champions.

And Faber and Torres were so dominant during their title reigns, and are extremely dynamic fighters who will find their way back to the top of their divisions, whatever they'll be in the future.
Jackelope
10/1/10 2:16:33PM

Posted by seanfu

If Aldo were destroy everyone at 135 the division itself I would say he is top 10 P4P but I just always feel like the WEC is trying to worm a fighter into that spot so they can promote themselves.



That's the exact same thing the UFC does though. I mean literally you could replace a few names and change a few numbers to higher divisions and the argument would be the exact same for the UFC. With the way MMA is organized that's just something we will always have to deal with.

The only reason it may seem more the case with WEC is because they've only really spent the last couple of years establishing their divisions whereas the UFC has had many more years to establish theirs.

Besides that, when I look at a fighter I judge him on what skills I see and not so much on their opponent. Although skills are somewhat reflected differently depending on opponents. That being said, IMO Aldo has easily identifiable skills that absolutely warrant his place in the mention of p4p greats.
Jackelope
10/1/10 2:20:03PM

Posted by seanfu


Posted by grappler0000

I'd like to participate in the poll, but the wording of the question along with all 5 responses tend to support your own point of view in various ways instead of covering a wide spectrum of views.



There are yes and no.



The question you ask in the poll is "Can you be a top P4P dominating in a weak division?" Which, no matter how you answer your question means that you support the idea that the WEC has weak divisions. That's the error in the wording
seanfu
10/1/10 2:41:11PM

Posted by Jackelope


Posted by seanfu

If Aldo were destroy everyone at 135 the division itself I would say he is top 10 P4P but I just always feel like the WEC is trying to worm a fighter into that spot so they can promote themselves.



That's the exact same thing the UFC does though. I mean literally you could replace a few names and change a few numbers to higher divisions and the argument would be the exact same for the UFC. With the way MMA is organized that's just something we will always have to deal with.

The only reason it may seem more the case with WEC is because they've only really spent the last couple of years establishing their divisions whereas the UFC has had many more years to establish theirs.

Besides that, when I look at a fighter I judge him on what skills I see and not so much on their opponent. Although skills are somewhat reflected differently depending on opponents. That being said, IMO Aldo has easily identifiable skills that absolutely warrant his place in the mention of p4p greats.



Chris Leben looked like a really good striker until he fought real strikers, Anderson looked like he had great BJJ until he fought Chael Sonnen, and Chuck was P4P one of the best until the division arrived.

This is all I'm saying. Exposure be damned Manny is not a great fighter period, one of my past favorites but not a great fighter. So wouldnt it be easier to look great against that calibur? Research the name Jason Black and you can get a great insight to how dominant someone can be against fighters who are not at their level.

GSP has dominated, without dispute, every 170 pounder worth fighting. Anderson has at least won against every notable who could keep a winning streak including a then prime multidivisional pride champ Hendo, BJ dominated all the 155 class until Frankie arrived, These are the best.

I don't see Joe Warren, Yammamoto (who is a great example of being hype dispelled after fighting real fighters) , Omigawa, Hioki.

Don't you think if the Middleweight division was in the state it was back in 05 that even Rich Franlin would be seen as a pound for pound great, oh wait.
seanfu
10/1/10 2:46:45PM

Posted by Jackelope


Posted by seanfu


Posted by grappler0000

I'd like to participate in the poll, but the wording of the question along with all 5 responses tend to support your own point of view in various ways instead of covering a wide spectrum of views.



There are yes and no.



The question you ask in the poll is "Can you be a top P4P dominating in a weak division?" Which, no matter how you answer your question means that you support the idea that the WEC has weak divisions. That's the error in the wording



I thought we were all assuming that a primitave newly developing division is weaker than average, and that a promotions division containing only half of that division's top talent is weak.

I do understand that to the people who do not see it this way it's unfair though. I didn't understand what people meant at first because I thought were all on that same page.
Jackelope
10/1/10 2:59:32PM

Posted by seanfu

Chris Leben looked like a really good striker until he fought real strikers, Anderson looked like he had great BJJ until he fought Chael Sonnen, and Chuck was P4P one of the best until the division arrived.

This is all I'm saying. Exposure be damned Manny is not a great fighter period, one of my past favorites but not a great fighter. So wouldnt it be easier to look great against that calibur? Research the name Jason Black and you can get a great insight to how dominant someone can be against fighters who are not at their level.

GSP has dominated, without dispute, every 170 pounder worth fighting. Anderson has at least won against every notable who could keep a winning streak including a then prime multidivisional pride champ Hendo, BJ dominated all the 155 class until Frankie arrived, These are the best.

I don't see Joe Warren, Yammamoto (who is a great example of being hype dispelled after fighting real fighters) , Omigawa, Hioki.

Don't you think if the Middleweight division was in the state it was back in 05 that even Rich Franlin would be seen as a pound for pound great, oh wait.



Anyone who thought Chris Leben was a good striker didn't know what they were looking at. I would be honest if I did, but trust me.. I never counted myself amongst those who thought Leben was a good striker.

Anderson submitted Chael Sonnen... so....?

Chuck's wars caught up with him. Besides that it supports my argument that the UFC does this too. So I don't see how it applies? On top of that Chuck's skills never once ever looked anything even remotely similar to Jose's complete skillset. Or GSP's. Or Anderson's.

Nobody is saying Manny Gamburyan is or was the greatest to my knowledge. But, since we're on the subject- may I ask whom you submit as better fighters at that weight class?

Nobody ever said Jason Black was one of the best ever to my knowledge, either. So I... again... fail to see how it relates.

Nobody is denying that GSP is a p4p great, either. At least not anybody with any sense. Moments before you typed anything about Anderson you were bashing on his BJJ skills... so I'm not sure where you're going with that either. Besides, for me personally I always have seen the wrestling holes in Anderson's game and you can go back through my post history to see evidence that supports this. You can still be a p4p great with those weaknesses, though. Everyone knows BJ's weakness and he's proven it many fights in a row now. He should be off any respectable p4p list at this point.

Honestly your whole argument seems disjointed and wandering. Maybe I'm failing to see something here but I personally feel like it's a whole lot of opinion with little or no relevant facts to back it up. I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, but that's my honest assessment of the situation.
seanfu
10/1/10 3:23:57PM

Posted by Jackelope


Posted by seanfu

Chris Leben looked like a really good striker until he fought real strikers, Anderson looked like he had great BJJ until he fought Chael Sonnen, and Chuck was P4P one of the best until the division arrived.

This is all I'm saying. Exposure be damned Manny is not a great fighter period, one of my past favorites but not a great fighter. So wouldnt it be easier to look great against that calibur? Research the name Jason Black and you can get a great insight to how dominant someone can be against fighters who are not at their level.

GSP has dominated, without dispute, every 170 pounder worth fighting. Anderson has at least won against every notable who could keep a winning streak including a then prime multidivisional pride champ Hendo, BJ dominated all the 155 class until Frankie arrived, These are the best.

I don't see Joe Warren, Yammamoto (who is a great example of being hype dispelled after fighting real fighters) , Omigawa, Hioki.

Don't you think if the Middleweight division was in the state it was back in 05 that even Rich Franlin would be seen as a pound for pound great, oh wait.



Anyone who thought Chris Leben was a good striker didn't know what they were looking at. I would be honest if I did, but trust me.. I never counted myself amongst those who thought Leben was a good striker.

Anderson submitted Chael Sonnen... so....?

Chuck's wars caught up with him. Besides that it supports my argument that the UFC does this too. So I don't see how it applies? On top of that Chuck's skills never once ever looked anything even remotely similar to Jose's complete skillset. Or GSP's. Or Anderson's.

Nobody is saying Manny Gamburyan is or was the greatest to my knowledge. But, since we're on the subject- may I ask whom you submit as better fighters at that weight class?

Nobody ever said Jason Black was one of the best ever to my knowledge, either. So I... again... fail to see how it relates.

Nobody is denying that GSP is a p4p great, either. At least not anybody with any sense. Moments before you typed anything about Anderson you were bashing on his BJJ skills... so I'm not sure where you're going with that either. Besides, for me personally I always have seen the wrestling holes in Anderson's game and you can go back through my post history to see evidence that supports this. You can still be a p4p great with those weaknesses, though. Everyone knows BJ's weakness and he's proven it many fights in a row now. He should be off any respectable p4p list at this point.

Honestly your whole argument seems disjointed and wandering. Maybe I'm failing to see something here but I personally feel like it's a whole lot of opinion with little or no relevant facts to back it up. I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, but that's my honest assessment of the situation.



I'll try to sum it up concisely, I have seen a lot of hype thrown around with little to back it up now that I have been around to see fighters come and go.

They win against 2 or 3 solid or top oponents and they become superstar #1 P4P talent. Then those fighters they beat disapear into mediocrity and they lose a fight. Now they were never good at all and everyone knew it all along. It is this I am talking about.

Torres beats a couple fighters with poor exciting performances and because he's only lost once he's now top 5 p4p. He was not top 5 p4p. Also, being at the top of a shallow division is not his fault,but he can't really be a top 5 p4p beating weak opposition without having one hell of a consistent reign.

Thats my arguement. I honestly want him to rank up there and think he will eventually but this is ridiculus to me.
Jackelope
10/1/10 3:40:21PM

Posted by seanfu


I'll try to sum it up concisely, I have seen a lot of hype thrown around with little to back it up now that I have been around to see fighters come and go.

They win against 2 or 3 solid or top oponents and they become superstar #1 P4P talent. Then those fighters they beat disapear into mediocrity and they lose a fight. Now they were never good at all and everyone knew it all along. It is this I am talking about.

Torres beats a couple fighters with poor exciting performances and because he's only lost once he's now top 5 p4p. He was not top 5 p4p. Also, being at the top of a shallow division is not his fault,but he can't really be a top 5 p4p beating weak opposition without having one hell of a consistent reign.

Thats my arguement. I honestly want him to rank up there and think he will eventually but this is ridiculus to me.



But this would happen to any other fighter. And it did happen to BJ just recently. Take an honest look at how long of streaks he had before, and against who, and tell me it's not the exact same thing. It is the very nature of the fight game for this to be the case no matter who you're talking about.

My issue with your opinion on this matter is the fact that your whole argument is predicated on the WEC having weak divisions. I mean- who would you rather have Aldo fighting? Who are the better fighters in that division that he should be matched up against?
Pskinner_mma314
10/1/10 3:42:34PM

Posted by seanfu


Posted by Jackelope


Posted by seanfu

Chris Leben looked like a really good striker until he fought real strikers, Anderson looked like he had great BJJ until he fought Chael Sonnen, and Chuck was P4P one of the best until the division arrived.

This is all I'm saying. Exposure be damned Manny is not a great fighter period, one of my past favorites but not a great fighter. So wouldnt it be easier to look great against that calibur? Research the name Jason Black and you can get a great insight to how dominant someone can be against fighters who are not at their level.

GSP has dominated, without dispute, every 170 pounder worth fighting. Anderson has at least won against every notable who could keep a winning streak including a then prime multidivisional pride champ Hendo, BJ dominated all the 155 class until Frankie arrived, These are the best.

I don't see Joe Warren, Yammamoto (who is a great example of being hype dispelled after fighting real fighters) , Omigawa, Hioki.

Don't you think if the Middleweight division was in the state it was back in 05 that even Rich Franlin would be seen as a pound for pound great, oh wait.



Anyone who thought Chris Leben was a good striker didn't know what they were looking at. I would be honest if I did, but trust me.. I never counted myself amongst those who thought Leben was a good striker.

Anderson submitted Chael Sonnen... so....?

Chuck's wars caught up with him. Besides that it supports my argument that the UFC does this too. So I don't see how it applies? On top of that Chuck's skills never once ever looked anything even remotely similar to Jose's complete skillset. Or GSP's. Or Anderson's.

Nobody is saying Manny Gamburyan is or was the greatest to my knowledge. But, since we're on the subject- may I ask whom you submit as better fighters at that weight class?

Nobody ever said Jason Black was one of the best ever to my knowledge, either. So I... again... fail to see how it relates.

Nobody is denying that GSP is a p4p great, either. At least not anybody with any sense. Moments before you typed anything about Anderson you were bashing on his BJJ skills... so I'm not sure where you're going with that either. Besides, for me personally I always have seen the wrestling holes in Anderson's game and you can go back through my post history to see evidence that supports this. You can still be a p4p great with those weaknesses, though. Everyone knows BJ's weakness and he's proven it many fights in a row now. He should be off any respectable p4p list at this point.

Honestly your whole argument seems disjointed and wandering. Maybe I'm failing to see something here but I personally feel like it's a whole lot of opinion with little or no relevant facts to back it up. I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, but that's my honest assessment of the situation.





They win against 2 or 3 solid or top oponents and they become superstar #1 P4P talent. Then those fighters they beat disapear into mediocrity and they lose a fight. Now they were never good at all and everyone knew it all along. It is this I am talking about.

Torres beats a couple fighters with poor exciting performances and because he's only lost once he's now top 5 p4p. He was not top 5 p4p. Also, being at the top of a shallow division is not his fault,but he can't really be a top 5 p4p beating weak opposition without having one hell of a consistent reign.





MMA fans have the memory of a goldfish
seanfu
10/1/10 3:50:45PM

Posted by Jackelope


Posted by seanfu


I'll try to sum it up concisely, I have seen a lot of hype thrown around with little to back it up now that I have been around to see fighters come and go.

They win against 2 or 3 solid or top oponents and they become superstar #1 P4P talent. Then those fighters they beat disapear into mediocrity and they lose a fight. Now they were never good at all and everyone knew it all along. It is this I am talking about.

Torres beats a couple fighters with poor exciting performances and because he's only lost once he's now top 5 p4p. He was not top 5 p4p. Also, being at the top of a shallow division is not his fault,but he can't really be a top 5 p4p beating weak opposition without having one hell of a consistent reign.

Thats my arguement. I honestly want him to rank up there and think he will eventually but this is ridiculus to me.



But this would happen to any other fighter. And it did happen to BJ just recently. Take an honest look at how long of streaks he had before, and against who, and tell me it's not the exact same thing. It is the very nature of the fight game for this to be the case no matter who you're talking about.

My issue with your opinion on this matter is the fact that your whole argument is predicated on the WEC having weak divisions. I mean- who would you rather have Aldo fighting? Who are the better fighters in that division that he should be matched up against?



To your first point, BJ did not have long streas and I suppose thats a good point, but he did beat high level fighters and the top of the 155, which is the weakest division in the UFC next to MW, but that's why he was never considered #1 p4p like Torres. And BJ had a strong history against strong oponents. I do agree though to a degree.

To the second point, it is not Aldo's fault. He is fighting the best of a division that is just coming together, there are a couple polarizing figures but other than Faber and Aldo it's a bunch of nothing.

Divisionwise, if there were no orgs and full weight classes complete, Aldo would still have to do 3 times as much as the next divisinal star to rank up. Look at 155 from 4-5 years ago and how empty it was, that is 145 right now. Being the best team in a triple A league doesn't rank you in the worlds best does it?

He is triple A

Pookie
10/1/10 4:36:07PM
Torres p4p status was largely determined by dominating weak competition consistently. His 38-1 record got him a spot in the p4p top 5. I never agreed, because beating say Shogun or Penn once means exponentially more than consistently beating nobody's.

Faber gained a p4p status for much of the same reason, though his skillset looked phenomenal on paper. Take-down machine, Scrambling monster, Submission maniac, and Stand-up Molotov cocktail. But as he fought tougher competition it illustrated the context of how good he really is. He has takedowns, but he's small for the division so dont expect him to bully a big wrestler. This helps his scrambling skills and makes him a nightmare against Bjj fighters. Most of his wins are by submission, but he earns those through attrition, he pushes the pace and makes lesser cardio'd fighters gas. His stand-up is explosive and quick, but his fundamentals have holes in them that an orthodox muay thai style can exploit. Until he fought tougher competition, we didnt know the limits of Fabers style.

Brown showed that faber's grappling was overrated. This earned him a spot in the p4p top ten. I disagreed with the premise, and now we know why.

In comes Aldo. Aldo absolutely beat the breaks off of Brown. Dominating him in every facet of the fight game. Even Browns trademark Retard Man strength helped him little against Aldo's grappling, the perceived weak spot in Jose's armor. He completely shut down Faber the same way. Urijah's lightning quick speed and ironman cardio only helped faber survive until decision. Urijah's stand-up tools couldnt exploit a hole in Aldo's defense either.

Who really knows the holes in aldo's game? It could be someone like Chael Sonnen, someone who is going to make you tap him off your back because your not transitioning at all. Or maybe a Randy Couture who can beat him up in the dirty clinch and wear on his explosiveness. Until we see it, no ones going to know. With Faber, Torres, and Brown you could infer weakspots based on their performances. But with Aldo we haven't seen that yet. I think thats the difference with Aldo and why he deserves a spot in the p4p top 5 right now. Visually, you can see the gap in skill.
BlueSkiesBurn
10/1/10 8:18:58PM

Posted by gartface

Jose Aldo is THE best pound for pound fighter in the world. Anderson has shown gaping holes in his takedown defense and susceptibility to wrestling, GSP has been knocked out and submitted by weaker competition,



Matt Hughes, arguably the greatest welterweight champion of all time, is considered weaker competition?

Serra, yes, but a fighter is going to get caught.

GSP has two whole losses in his career.

Aldo lost to a guy who is 16-9 in his MMA career.
Pookie
10/1/10 8:30:27PM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn


Posted by gartface

Jose Aldo is THE best pound for pound fighter in the world. Anderson has shown gaping holes in his takedown defense and susceptibility to wrestling, GSP has been knocked out and submitted by weaker competition,



Matt Hughes, arguably the greatest welterweight champion of all time, is considered weaker competition?

Serra, yes, but a fighter is going to get caught.

GSP has two whole losses in his career.

Aldo lost to a guy who is 16-9 in his MMA career.



Gsp lost to a guy who is 11-7.

Though i agree that Anderson and Gsp have faced the tougher competition with an equal measure of success, and should be ranked higher because of it.
BlueSkiesBurn
10/1/10 8:41:53PM

Posted by Pookie

Gsp lost to a guy who is 11-7.

Though i agree that Anderson and Gsp have faced the tougher competition with an equal measure of success, and should be ranked higher because of it.



Yeah, but Serra was fighting the likes of Hughes, Penn, GSP.

Outside of Aldo the best names that Azevedo has fought are Din Thomas, Mach Sakurai and Antonio McKee
ncordless
10/1/10 9:45:11PM
Mmamath means nothing.

If you are judging based purely on quality of opposition, then there are several guys above Aldo.

If you have an eye for MMA and know greatness when you see it, Aldo is top 3 at least.

I have him in my top three because while I think "who you beat" is the most important thing to consider, Aldo has one of if not the most brilliant set of skills I have ever seen in MMA and I have seen them all.

It kind of reminds me of a funny story. The Supreme Court used to watch porn once a week when they were dealing with lots of those free speech cases a generation ago. They all sat there and watched so they could figure out was obscene and what was not... which is dumb if you ask me. Anyway, one day one of the justices (Byron White, I think) was asked what the definition of porn was. The justice replied, "I don't know, but I know it when I see it." The same goes for Aldo. I can kind of explain what the specifics of what I see is, but some of those descriptions don't quite tell the story because they could apply to lesser fighters. But there is something about Aldo that I have seen very few times in MMA, there is greatness in his fighting and it is obvious and there is nothing to say to people who don't see it to make them believe it because words don't do it justice.

One of the things people just don't understand about MMA is that it is the most fickle of sports. The greats will fall sooner than later, that is the obvious nature of the sport. Talking about what Anderson did three years ago, or what Fedor did five years ago has nothing to do with p4p, that is a GOAT discussion. MMA is all about right now. Right now, Jose Aldo has the best skills in the sport, and if he was facing tougher competition he would easily be #1.
seanfu
10/1/10 9:50:53PM

Posted by ncordless

Mmamath means nothing.

If you are judging based purely on quality of opposition, then there are several guys above Aldo.

If you have an eye for MMA and know greatness when you see it, Aldo is top 3 at least.

I have him in my top three because while I think "who you beat" is the most important thing to consider, Aldo has one of if not the most brilliant set of skills I have ever seen in MMA and I have seen them all.

It kind of reminds me of a funny story. The Supreme Court used to watch porn once a week when they were dealing with lots of those free speech cases a generation ago. They all sat there and watched so they could figure out was obscene and what was not... which is dumb if you ask me. Anyway, one day one of the justices (Byron White, I think) was asked what the definition of porn was. The justice replied, "I don't know, but I know it when I see it." The same goes for Aldo. I can kind of explain what the specifics of what I see is, but some of those descriptions don't quite tell the story because they could apply to lesser fighters. But there is something about Aldo that I have seen very few times in MMA, there is greatness in his fighting and it is obvious and there is nothing to say to people who don't see it to make them believe it because words don't do it justice.

One of the things people just don't understand about MMA is that it is the most fickle of sports. The greats will fall sooner than later, that is the obvious nature of the sport. Talking about what Anderson did three years ago, or what Fedor did five years ago has nothing to do with p4p, that is a GOAT discussion. MMA is all about right now. Right now, Jose Aldo has the best skills in the sport, and if he was facing tougher competition he would easily be #1.



I just think he is gonna have to consistently knock off top guys to qualify. If skillset was enough a lot of guys like Jon Jones could be top 3.

If Aldo is top 3 I want Jon Jones to be a top 3 p4p.
ncordless
10/1/10 9:59:20PM

Posted by seanfu


Posted by ncordless

Mmamath means nothing.

If you are judging based purely on quality of opposition, then there are several guys above Aldo.

If you have an eye for MMA and know greatness when you see it, Aldo is top 3 at least.

I have him in my top three because while I think "who you beat" is the most important thing to consider, Aldo has one of if not the most brilliant set of skills I have ever seen in MMA and I have seen them all.

It kind of reminds me of a funny story. The Supreme Court used to watch porn once a week when they were dealing with lots of those free speech cases a generation ago. They all sat there and watched so they could figure out was obscene and what was not... which is dumb if you ask me. Anyway, one day one of the justices (Byron White, I think) was asked what the definition of porn was. The justice replied, "I don't know, but I know it when I see it." The same goes for Aldo. I can kind of explain what the specifics of what I see is, but some of those descriptions don't quite tell the story because they could apply to lesser fighters. But there is something about Aldo that I have seen very few times in MMA, there is greatness in his fighting and it is obvious and there is nothing to say to people who don't see it to make them believe it because words don't do it justice.

One of the things people just don't understand about MMA is that it is the most fickle of sports. The greats will fall sooner than later, that is the obvious nature of the sport. Talking about what Anderson did three years ago, or what Fedor did five years ago has nothing to do with p4p, that is a GOAT discussion. MMA is all about right now. Right now, Jose Aldo has the best skills in the sport, and if he was facing tougher competition he would easily be #1.



I just think he is gonna have to consistently knock off top guys to qualify. If skillset was enough a lot of guys like Jon Jones could be top 3.

If Aldo is top 3 I want Jon Jones to be a top 3 p4p.



I think Jones is right there in the p4p discussion, but as good as Jones is, he hasn't shown the same amount of skills as Aldo so far. I have him at 7 or 8 I think.
grappler0000
10/1/10 11:12:18PM
Edit: Nevermind, I can't read.
seanfu
10/2/10 12:27:06AM

Posted by ncordless


Posted by seanfu


Posted by ncordless

Mmamath means nothing.

If you are judging based purely on quality of opposition, then there are several guys above Aldo.

If you have an eye for MMA and know greatness when you see it, Aldo is top 3 at least.

I have him in my top three because while I think "who you beat" is the most important thing to consider, Aldo has one of if not the most brilliant set of skills I have ever seen in MMA and I have seen them all.

It kind of reminds me of a funny story. The Supreme Court used to watch porn once a week when they were dealing with lots of those free speech cases a generation ago. They all sat there and watched so they could figure out was obscene and what was not... which is dumb if you ask me. Anyway, one day one of the justices (Byron White, I think) was asked what the definition of porn was. The justice replied, "I don't know, but I know it when I see it." The same goes for Aldo. I can kind of explain what the specifics of what I see is, but some of those descriptions don't quite tell the story because they could apply to lesser fighters. But there is something about Aldo that I have seen very few times in MMA, there is greatness in his fighting and it is obvious and there is nothing to say to people who don't see it to make them believe it because words don't do it justice.

One of the things people just don't understand about MMA is that it is the most fickle of sports. The greats will fall sooner than later, that is the obvious nature of the sport. Talking about what Anderson did three years ago, or what Fedor did five years ago has nothing to do with p4p, that is a GOAT discussion. MMA is all about right now. Right now, Jose Aldo has the best skills in the sport, and if he was facing tougher competition he would easily be #1.



I just think he is gonna have to consistently knock off top guys to qualify. If skillset was enough a lot of guys like Jon Jones could be top 3.

If Aldo is top 3 I want Jon Jones to be a top 3 p4p.



I think Jones is right there in the p4p discussion, but as good as Jones is, he hasn't shown the same amount of skills as Aldo so far. I have him at 7 or 8 I think.



So does that then mean that you do not base rankings on actual accomplishment and instead fighter peerformance? I don't understand how someone can possibly give jones a top 10.
Jackelope
10/2/10 3:16:54AM

Posted by seanfu

I just think he is gonna have to consistently knock off top guys to qualify. If skillset was enough a lot of guys like Jon Jones could be top 3.

If Aldo is top 3 I want Jon Jones to be a top 3 p4p.



Jon Jones is NOWHERE near top 3 p4p on my list if that's any consolation for your argument. Jon Jones has large holes in his game still but at this point they have been overcome by his incredible skills in other departments. But make no mistake Jon Jones isn't near the complete fighter that Aldo is by any means.
Jackelope
10/2/10 3:19:10AM

Posted by ncordless

Mmamath means nothing.

If you are judging based purely on quality of opposition, then there are several guys above Aldo.

If you have an eye for MMA and know greatness when you see it, Aldo is top 3 at least.

I have him in my top three because while I think "who you beat" is the most important thing to consider, Aldo has one of if not the most brilliant set of skills I have ever seen in MMA and I have seen them all.

It kind of reminds me of a funny story. The Supreme Court used to watch porn once a week when they were dealing with lots of those free speech cases a generation ago. They all sat there and watched so they could figure out was obscene and what was not... which is dumb if you ask me. Anyway, one day one of the justices (Byron White, I think) was asked what the definition of porn was. The justice replied, "I don't know, but I know it when I see it." The same goes for Aldo. I can kind of explain what the specifics of what I see is, but some of those descriptions don't quite tell the story because they could apply to lesser fighters. But there is something about Aldo that I have seen very few times in MMA, there is greatness in his fighting and it is obvious and there is nothing to say to people who don't see it to make them believe it because words don't do it justice.

One of the things people just don't understand about MMA is that it is the most fickle of sports. The greats will fall sooner than later, that is the obvious nature of the sport. Talking about what Anderson did three years ago, or what Fedor did five years ago has nothing to do with p4p, that is a GOAT discussion. MMA is all about right now. Right now, Jose Aldo has the best skills in the sport, and if he was facing tougher competition he would easily be #1.



I wish I could give you props because this post basically sums up the main crux of my argument. If you truly know what to look for then you should know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Aldo is one of the greatest fighters alive right now.

I understand the points Seanfu is trying to make with the Triple A argument but I think it's a mockery of the situation to call Aldo triple A.

If he's Triple A then he's Strasbourg coming fresh into the league getting a few tune up games in Triple A.

That being said I'm not sure Aldo's skills and physical abilities are going to carry upwards with him as he goes up in weight, but right now I'd take him against any 145 lber on the planet without hesitation
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