Aikido

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Iowa91CamaroRS
2/3/08 6:09:11PM
How well does aikido work in MMA? i was interested in the form but wondered how well fighters that use aikido fair...
Rush
2/3/08 6:47:47PM
I've done aikido for a number of years now and can totally chime in on this.

1) Do not listen to people when they say aikido is useless. They don't know what they are talking about.

2) Aikido techniques themselves do not translate to MMA (they are more applicable for general self defense from the average person). However, the principles of efficient body movement, I think are things every martial artist should know. Aikido really stresses how to use your body in an efficient manner to either move an opponent or change their direction. This is something I see a lot of MMA fighters lacking.

3) On a personal note, I stopped doing judo and went and did aikido. After about 6-12 months I went back and did a little judo. During those 6-12 months I did no judo training at all. However, my throws in judo were a lot more powerful just due to my aikido training.

4) In addition to learning efficient body movement, aikido teaches the importance of your "centre" and angles of movement, balance and breaking.

5) Most aikido locks are not applicable to MMA, but the principles of learning how to lock joints and limbs are applicable to any BBJ lock.

6) Our club has had a number of varsity football players come train over the summer to help improve their games and a few of them have stuck with it and said it really helped them with balance.

7) Aikido helps teach coordinating breath with movement as well as how to move relaxed. Yoga is also great for improving these too. IMO, these are really important for MMA



I don't know if there are any current MMA fighters that say they do aikido. I think aikido is great for supplementing your MMA training. (i.e. taking it seriously for 1-2 years), but I don't think you want to base your training on it.

I hope this helps
jomatty
2/3/08 10:02:17PM
very good response. my two cents is that any martial art will help and aikido is no exception. that said if your goal is to be a martial artist you only have so many hours in the day and i think aikido is probably a poor choice to invest a lot of time in, not because it is not helpful or not a great martial art but because their are so many other disciplines that translate better to mma.
Omega
2/3/08 10:03:02PM

Posted by Rush

I've done aikido for a number of years now and can totally chime in on this.

1) Do not listen to people when they say aikido is useless. They don't know what they are talking about.

2) Aikido techniques themselves do not translate to MMA (they are more applicable for general self defense from the average person). However, the principles of efficient body movement, I think are things every martial artist should know. Aikido really stresses how to use your body in an efficient manner to either move an opponent or change their direction. This is something I see a lot of MMA fighters lacking.

3) On a personal note, I stopped doing judo and went and did aikido. After about 6-12 months I went back and did a little judo. During those 6-12 months I did no judo training at all. However, my throws in judo were a lot more powerful just due to my aikido training.

4) In addition to learning efficient body movement, aikido teaches the importance of your "centre" and angles of movement, balance and breaking.

5) Most aikido locks are not applicable to MMA, but the principles of learning how to lock joints and limbs are applicable to any BBJ lock.

6) Our club has had a number of varsity football players come train over the summer to help improve their games and a few of them have stuck with it and said it really helped them with balance.

7) Aikido helps teach coordinating breath with movement as well as how to move relaxed. Yoga is also great for improving these too. IMO, these are really important for MMA



I don't know if there are any current MMA fighters that say they do aikido. I think aikido is great for supplementing your MMA training. (i.e. taking it seriously for 1-2 years), but I don't think you want to base your training on it.

I hope this helps



I'm not going to get into a flame war with you so please don't take this as an attack. The question was how does it translate to MMA. Answer: It doesn't.

Aikido is a concept and a philosophy not a real style in the classical sense. Most practicing Aikidoist don't even realize this.

1. Aikido is not useless but not as effective as practitioners would lead you to believe.

2. By saying this you don't understand the Aiki principle very well. Another debate at another time. Let me just say that BJJ practitioners use the Aiki principles all the time.

3. Can't argue that.

4. Can't argue that

5. Um...that's debatable.

6. Can't argue that

7. If you didn't learn that in Judo then I question your Judo instructor.

Jason Delucia is the only practicing Aikidoist that does MMA. Since he's a former UFC fighter that's a good reference. I think Aikido too could help a mma fighter but there's nobody that understands both aspects to translate it to mma that could really help. I personally use Aiki principles but I actually have an understanding of both needs. Personally speaking most Aikidoist don't look at things from a practical point of view to really be able to translate it correctly. I say study BJJ or SAMBO long enough and the principles will eventually click without having to emerse yourself into the dogma that surrounds most Aikido dojos.
Rush
2/3/08 11:50:10PM

Posted by Omega

2. By saying this you don't understand the Aiki principle very well. Another debate at another time. Let me just say that BJJ practitioners use the Aiki principles all the time.

.



I'm not going to flame you, but I am going to rebuke your statements that I think are in err. Please note that I said the techniques do not translate well into MMA.

For a general example, many aikido techniques are performed either as defense from attacks and additionally the techniques themselves are performed in ways that are not applicable to MMA. Just to name a few

Hand grabs (either in defense or offense)
Downward strikes
Grabs on clothing
Attacks from armed assailants


Very few, if any aikido techniques deal with attacks that are commonly used in MMA.

As far as the principles are concerned, I thought I spent a lot of space praising their applicability in MMA in later points.



Also, I think using Jasen Delucia is not the best example. That guy has done a number of different styles of martial arts and by no means would I consider him close to being a purist.
Rush
2/4/08 12:04:09AM

Posted by Omega

1. Aikido is not useless but not as effective as practitioners would lead you to believe.

5. Um...that's debatable.

7. If you didn't learn that in Judo then I question your Judo instructor.




RE: 1) Please, I've trained enough years that I can tell what is legit and what isn't I agree that there are a lot of bogus martial artists out there, regardless of their style, but if you don't think the techniques are effective, please come to my dojo.

RE: 5) please elaborate


RE: 7) I'll admit that my judo instructor was not a great teacher (just like many instructors out there), but IMO judo is not the best martial art to teach connecting the breath with the movement. I'll explain why if you're curious.
Stickan
2/4/08 1:33:55AM
I've done some Aikido (only 6 months) and I must say that even if some believe it might help your MMA game, most other martial arts would help your MMA game a lot more.
Svartorm
2/4/08 2:02:46AM
Not an expert on this at all, but I do have to chime in on one thing.

Any martial art thats based on an opponents reaction is doomed to fail in a real fight. Action is almost always faster than reaction, so being on the defensive in an encounter is rarely a good idea. When adreneline is pumping, fine motor skills are the first things to go, which is the failing of martial arts that relay on trapping, catching strikes, small joint holds, pressure points, etc.

Honestly, if it were me, I'd skip the Aikido and go straight to Judo.
Mastodon2
2/4/08 2:19:21AM
It's clear that Aikido alone isn't enough for MMA, but like Rush said, he had Judo experience, and Aikido just supplemented it. It's the same as thread we had last year, where some guy wanted to know if learning Jeet Kune Do could help him prepare for MMA, and the overall consensus was that the benefits (increased balance, reaction times, outside the box thinking) would outweigh the negative aspects (weak strikes, poor stance), because he could take the benefits and apply them to his MMA training. I'd say the same is true for Aikido; no one is wanting to become a full time Aikido practicioner fighting in MMA, but you will however, most likely learn a few principles that will be applicable to MMA, in this case efficient motion, the importance of staying relaxed and the exact places to apply force to make someone move with minimal effort. A lot of Judokas I trained with and fought against back in my Judo days wern't so great at that last one, mainly because a lot of their teachers didn't stress how and where to push someone to manipulate them, particularly on the ground, and were often just having their students rely on strength to manipulate their opponents, rather than perfect alignment, and therefore maximum leverage to minimum effort.
Rush
2/4/08 9:50:39AM
Ah good, varying opinions. Hopefully this will be a good discussion.


OK, I must clarify something here.

Before doing aikido I did over 5 years of jujutsu and then slightly overlapped with 5 years of judo. Then I've done up to 3 years or a little more of aikido up to now.

Jujutsu taught me to be aggressive and creative with how I approach a situation.

Judo really didn't do much for me other than slightly improve my body throws and teach me a few new ones that I didn't learn in jujutsu. Just with a few seminars of BJJ (this was back in the mid 90's) and my wrestling experience from elementary and high school, I was miles ahead of anyone in judo with respect to ground work.

I found that aikido really improved my techniques that I learned earlier. Maybe it was the fact that my aikido teacher was much better than the others, but I think the way the art is, just provided a better environment to learn aiki principles.

I know aikido works in real life situations. In my own experience I have used it. I have a close friend that is a security guard in a hospital. Aikido has saved his life. He used it when a guy pulled a gun on him. He uses it to restrain and control people that are high on drugs or just pumped up and crazy.


I'll post more thoughts later today.

Omega
2/4/08 12:03:36PM

Posted by Rush

Ah good, varying opinions. Hopefully this will be a good discussion.


OK, I must clarify something here.

Before doing aikido I did over 5 years of jujutsu and then slightly overlapped with 5 years of judo. Then I've done up to 3 years or a little more of aikido up to now.

Jujutsu taught me to be aggressive and creative with how I approach a situation.

Judo really didn't do much for me other than slightly improve my body throws and teach me a few new ones that I didn't learn in jujutsu. Just with a few seminars of BJJ (this was back in the mid 90's) and my wrestling experience from elementary and high school, I was miles ahead of anyone in judo with respect to ground work.

I found that aikido really improved my techniques that I learned earlier. Maybe it was the fact that my aikido teacher was much better than the others, but I think the way the art is, just provided a better environment to learn aiki principles.

I know aikido works in real life situations. In my own experience I have used it. I have a close friend that is a security guard in a hospital. Aikido has saved his life. He used it when a guy pulled a gun on him. He uses it to restrain and control people that are high on drugs or just pumped up and crazy.


I'll post more thoughts later today.




Look this is a debate that has gone on for years. Your experience with Aikido is no greater than mine. I don't even view Aikido as a martial art as much as a concept. I really don't want to get into the arguments. Most Aikido that I come across does nothing for the practitioner when it comes to practical self-defense. I always get guys from Aikido lecturing me as if I didn't know anything about Aikido. I know plenty about Aikido.

Aikido for MMA? I think most Aikidoist need to go over their history. Martial arts are full of systems that try to become more than they were designed to be, short cut where there can't be short cuts and and Aikido is one of those systems.

Putting up an the argument "well there are other systems that don't work too" is a strawman argument. It doesn't really point out what's wrong. Aikido does not take a practical approach to self-defense so I don't find it as effective as other systems.

StevenSeagal
2/4/08 12:47:42PM

Posted by Omega


Posted by Rush

Ah good, varying opinions. Hopefully this will be a good discussion.


OK, I must clarify something here.

Before doing aikido I did over 5 years of jujutsu and then slightly overlapped with 5 years of judo. Then I've done up to 3 years or a little more of aikido up to now.

Jujutsu taught me to be aggressive and creative with how I approach a situation.

Judo really didn't do much for me other than slightly improve my body throws and teach me a few new ones that I didn't learn in jujutsu. Just with a few seminars of BJJ (this was back in the mid 90's) and my wrestling experience from elementary and high school, I was miles ahead of anyone in judo with respect to ground work.

I found that aikido really improved my techniques that I learned earlier. Maybe it was the fact that my aikido teacher was much better than the others, but I think the way the art is, just provided a better environment to learn aiki principles.

I know aikido works in real life situations. In my own experience I have used it. I have a close friend that is a security guard in a hospital. Aikido has saved his life. He used it when a guy pulled a gun on him. He uses it to restrain and control people that are high on drugs or just pumped up and crazy.


I'll post more thoughts later today.




Look this is a debate that has gone on for years. Your experience with Aikido is no greater than mine. I don't even view Aikido as a martial art as much as a concept. I really don't want to get into the arguments. Most Aikido that I come across does nothing for the practitioner when it comes to practical self-defense. I always get guys from Aikido lecturing me as if I didn't know anything about Aikido. I know plenty about Aikido.

Aikido for MMA? I think most Aikidoist need to go over their history. Martial arts are full of systems that try to become more than they were designed to be, short cut where there can't be short cuts and and Aikido is one of those systems.

Putting up an the argument "well there are other systems that don't work too" is a strawman argument. It doesn't really point out what's wrong. Aikido does not take a practical approach to self-defense so I don't find it as effective as other systems.




Am I missing something in this debate here lol? I think Rush made it clear that Aikido doesnt translate to MMA... Omega, so did you... now squabling about Delucia and what hand grabs that translate into MMA seems to be irrelavant... Both are taking slightly different roads but getting to the same conclusion... Am I right??
Rush
2/4/08 1:36:37PM

Posted by Omega


Look this is a debate that has gone on for years. Your experience with Aikido is no greater than mine. I don't even view Aikido as a martial art as much as a concept. I really don't want to get into the arguments. Most Aikido that I come across does nothing for the practitioner when it comes to practical self-defense. I always get guys from Aikido lecturing me as if I didn't know anything about Aikido. I know plenty about Aikido.





Wow, that's pretty presumptuous of you to assume you have a clue what my aikido experience consists of.

To say that aikido is merely a concept and not a martial art is an argument that can be made for almost any martial art out there.

To say aikido is not practical as self defense is generalizing a martial art and I think it is wrong. In your experience that may be the case, but I still would like you to elaborate on why it isn't practical. Some aikido styles, like aikikai, are less focused on self defense and applicability and more on harmony. Try your looking at a harder style of aikido that goes back to the aikijujutsu roots and you'll see that it works. Like I said, my aikido (if you want to get more specific, an aikido technique and training) saved his life in a self defense situation.

I agree that there are aikidoka that lecture people, but I get the same BS from MMA guys, BJJ guys, kickboxers, boxers, etc. People that stay pure to one form (or even a concept if that's the way you look at it) tend to turn into snobs as their experience increases. That's not the way I look at martial arts. I look at martial arts as different ways of applying and/or teaching a common set of concepts. Some styles are better at teaching or learning certain concepts than others. All forms are useful in a self defense situation.

To say that you know plenty about something, but only want to state your opinion and not discuss it really makes me question whether you know as much as you think or claim. I'm not trying to be a dick or anything, but you can't (shouldn't) expect to post a strong opinion on a discussion (forum), but then say you don't want to discuss it, and expect the nay-sayer(s) to accept that.
Rush
2/4/08 1:44:37PM

Posted by StevenSeagal

Am I missing something in this debate here lol? I think Rush made it clear that Aikido doesnt translate to MMA... Omega, so did you... now squabling about Delucia and what hand grabs that translate into MMA seems to be irrelavant... Both are taking slightly different roads but getting to the same conclusion... Am I right??




Just to clarify... again... I am saying that the techniques aikido uses to teach the concepts of harmonizing energy, etc. are not useful in MMA.

i.e. ikkajo, ni kajo, san kajo, yon kajo, shiho nage, irimi nage, suwari waza, etc. etc. ( I could name over a hundred techniques) are not applicable in an MMA contest. That is, you can't be an MMA guy, go to an aikido seminar and learn a technique that you can implement in your MMA game plan.

However, I do feel that the concepts that these aikido techniques teach are very applicable and relevant towards MMA. The person doing them just has to have the knowledge to be able to translate those concepts into a framework that is applicable to MMA.

StevenSeagal
2/4/08 1:59:58PM

Posted by Rush


Posted by StevenSeagal

Am I missing something in this debate here lol? I think Rush made it clear that Aikido doesnt translate to MMA... Omega, so did you... now squabling about Delucia and what hand grabs that translate into MMA seems to be irrelavant... Both are taking slightly different roads but getting to the same conclusion... Am I right??




Just to clarify... again... I am saying that the techniques aikido uses to teach the concepts of harmonizing energy, etc. are not useful in MMA.

i.e. ikkajo, ni kajo, san kajo, yon kajo, shiho nage, irimi nage, suwari waza, etc. etc. ( I could name over a hundred techniques) are not applicable in an MMA contest. That is, you can't be an MMA guy, go to an aikido seminar and learn a technique that you can implement in your MMA game plan.

However, I do feel that the concepts that these aikido techniques teach are very applicable and relevant towards MMA. The person doing them just has to have the knowledge to be able to translate those concepts into a framework that is applicable to MMA.





I feel you man. I was going to elaborate more but i just backspaced it and let it go lol. I hear yeah that there are Aikido techniques that def could translate into MMA. My old BJJ school used to share a building with an Aikido school. The movements that I saw in regards to moving ones opponent and using their energy against them would def help... Again all aspects of Aikido?? prob not... Some?? sure why not.... Hardpressed to find one martial art that an MMA person couldnt take something from it into the cage... Rush we squabbled before, but when ur right ur right... props for fighting the good fight lol
Omega
2/4/08 2:28:18PM

Posted by Rush


Posted by Omega


Look this is a debate that has gone on for years. Your experience with Aikido is no greater than mine. I don't even view Aikido as a martial art as much as a concept. I really don't want to get into the arguments. Most Aikido that I come across does nothing for the practitioner when it comes to practical self-defense. I always get guys from Aikido lecturing me as if I didn't know anything about Aikido. I know plenty about Aikido.




.

Wow, that's pretty presumptuous of you to assume you have a clue what my aikido experience consists of.

True, and I realized this when I posted it. I practiced 'Aikido' from 87-94 and we still practice the techniques until this day. Would you like to compare?


To say that aikido is merely a concept and not a martial art is an argument that can be made for almost any martial art out there.

Nope, it's a concept, a philosophy. The actual martial art/self-defense system is Aikijitsu which stemmed from Jujitsu.




To say aikido is not practical as self defense is generalizing a martial art and I think it is wrong. In your experience that may be the case, but I still would like you to elaborate on why it isn't practical.
aaaand here comes the same arguments.


Some aikido styles, like aikikai, are less focused on self defense and applicability and more on harmony. Try your looking at a harder style of aikido that goes back to the aikijujutsu roots and you'll see that it works. Like I said, my aikido (if you want to get more specific, an aikido technique and training) saved his life in a self defense situation.

And there's my counter point. I said most, not all. You bring up Aikijitsu, so do I. Aikido is the philosophy Aikijitsu is the style and techniqu.

[quote]I agree that there are aikidoka that lecture people, but I get the same BS from MMA guys, BJJ guys, kickboxers, boxers, etc.[/quote] and I agree.


People that stay pure to one form (or even a concept if that's the way you look at it) tend to turn into snobs as their experience increases. That's not the way I look at martial arts. I look at martial arts as different ways of applying and/or teaching a common set of concepts. Some styles are better at teaching or learning certain concepts than others. All forms are useful in a self defense situation.
Didn't say you did, you would be the exception to the rule which I sensed when I jumped on this thread.


To say that you know plenty about something, but only want to state your opinion and not discuss it really makes me question whether you know as much as you think or claim. I'm not trying to be a dick or anything, but you can't (shouldn't) expect to post a strong opinion on a discussion (forum), but then say you don't want to discuss it, and expect the nay-sayer(s) to accept that.
I'm lazy. I've done this discussion for years. I'm tired of it. I could cut and paste my responses from other forums and it would go exactly as it's going right now. Nothing new.

Aikido is what it is:

Does it belong in MMA? No (we both agree)
Is it a martial art? (eternal debate)
Is it good for self-defense? (percentage wise? No but neither is BJJ**don't get into this one either guys).
Is it fun to practice? Yes
Does it have some function? Yes

That's all I really want to get into. I'm here to discuss MMA not Aikido. You want that you've got to find me on other boards. Until then accept the fact that I did speak out of place with your knowledge of Aikido vs mine. Accept the fact I really don't want to get into it and assume where I'm really coming from.
StevenSeagal
2/4/08 2:40:27PM
lol I didnt know this was such a hot button topic... but whatever, we all agree in the end to the reason the thread was created... Here ye, Here ye Court is adjourned. NEXT......
Rush
2/4/08 3:22:28PM
Hey, it's cool Omega. I just wanted some clarification and got enough to satisfy.

I still do not agree with your distinction between martial art and concept/philosophy, but I agree that that is a discussion for another thread.

About your comment about BJJ being poor for self defense, I didn't want to bring it up, but I was going to comment on the Gracie's videos on jiujitsu self defense being just sloppy aikido/aikijujutsu. lol


As for your experience in aikido, I would be curious to know what style you did and your instructor.
Vendetta
2/4/08 9:17:59PM
Well, I've never trained aikido before, but I've rolled with aikido guys before and not been impressed. At all.
Rush
2/4/08 10:03:30PM

Posted by Vendetta

Well, I've never trained aikido before, but I've rolled with aikido guys before and not been impressed. At all.




I've rolled with BJJ guys before and was not impressed. What's your point?
jiujitsufreak74
2/4/08 10:18:29PM

Posted by Rush


Posted by Vendetta

Well, I've never trained aikido before, but I've rolled with aikido guys before and not been impressed. At all.




I've rolled with BJJ guys before and was not impressed. What's your point?



don't use JJ in your argument, we were just sitting out minding our own business...

obviously people disagree on this. i am in the middle as i do not have enough knowledge on the topic to make an educated opinion worth debating. but what i can say is that maybe rush's form of aikido is not the standard "mold" of what people think of when they hear aikido this aikido can translate into MMA somewhat for him. it is all about perspective. i am sure that there is some middle ground here and it is pointless to make statements saying you have rolled with aikido guys and were not impressed, no reason for it.
Vendetta
2/4/08 11:14:44PM

Posted by Rush


Posted by Vendetta

Well, I've never trained aikido before, but I've rolled with aikido guys before and not been impressed. At all.




I've rolled with BJJ guys before and was not impressed. What's your point?



I believe it's relatively obvious, but my point was to offer up my experience with aikido students in this thread in order to attempt to answer the TS's question. I apologize if my experience offends you.
Omega
2/5/08 11:16:32AM
BTW guys all the things that are coming up right now come up everytime. This topic is just a curse that'll never go away.
madmarck
2/5/08 12:06:35PM

Posted by Rush


Posted by Vendetta

Well, I've never trained aikido before, but I've rolled with aikido guys before and not been impressed. At all.




I've rolled with BJJ guys before and was not impressed. What's your point?



hahahhh thats awesome. There are people out there who are just generally shitty at everything involving phyiscial activity. Some people just dont get stuff in MA.
I know a guy who has been rolling for 4months in BJJ and he still doesn't tap anyone. Even the new guys who are smaller then him.
Rush
2/5/08 4:04:35PM

Posted by madmarck


hahahhh thats awesome. There are people out there who are just generally shitty at everything involving phyiscial activity. Some people just dont get stuff in MA.
I know a guy who has been rolling for 4months in BJJ and he still doesn't tap anyone. Even the new guys who are smaller then him.




Well, this was exactly my point. The player doesn't always represent the game.
Omega
2/5/08 4:50:54PM

Posted by Rush


Posted by madmarck


hahahhh thats awesome. There are people out there who are just generally shitty at everything involving phyiscial activity. Some people just dont get stuff in MA.
I know a guy who has been rolling for 4months in BJJ and he still doesn't tap anyone. Even the new guys who are smaller then him.




Well, this was exactly my point. The player doesn't always represent the game.



Yup.
Iowa91CamaroRS
2/5/08 5:38:32PM
I'm just trying to find out which will be the best form of martial art to start, i mean I have the wrestling background, but never have fought anyone, I've been to some fights...Im thinking maybe training to do Karate...something that uses strikes...ground game and take downs may help and with the BJJ that we're doing i think i will have that covered
Rush
2/5/08 10:38:47PM

Posted by Iowa91CamaroRS

I'm just trying to find out which will be the best form of martial art to start, i mean I have the wrestling background, but never have fought anyone, I've been to some fights...Im thinking maybe training to do Karate...something that uses strikes...ground game and take downs may help and with the BJJ that we're doing i think i will have that covered




Aikido is a non-competition martial art. So if you are looking to compete or spar, it will not be a good choice.

AS far as striking goes, I don't consider myself experienced enough to give out advice. I would guess that any form will be useful to a point, but I don't know how far you want to take your training. I did karate for a little while and would think that most clubs put quite a bit of emphasis on forms and weapons, but this might be specific to the style of karate. Just to throw it out there, kickboxing or muay thai might be a better option for you, but as I said, I can't give you credible advice regarding striking styles.
Svartorm
2/6/08 2:06:39AM

Posted by Iowa91CamaroRS

I'm just trying to find out which will be the best form of martial art to start, i mean I have the wrestling background, but never have fought anyone, I've been to some fights...Im thinking maybe training to do Karate...something that uses strikes...ground game and take downs may help and with the BJJ that we're doing i think i will have that covered



Hey bro

How about you check around the area, see what there is localyl, and we can work from there? We should be able to rule out a few styles and schools and save you the leg work of checking in with them all.