Action Packed Fights?

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Aether
6/21/07 6:05:54PM
I enjoy MMA on the whole. I like the sport, be it UFC, PRIDE, K-1 Hero's, Shooto etc. etc. I have however also always maintained that PRIDE has higher-paced fights more consistently than any other organization. My question is do people agree with this, and what do you feel the main reasons for the discrepancy are?

My contention is that the main factors are

1) card system: losing a couple thousand dollars for stalling is a pretty huge incentive to get out there and start working for the win.

2) judging criteria: I think that there is a real difference between "aggression" and "effort to finish the fight by KO/Submission". My reasoning is that you can be aggressive without making a true effort to finish your opponent. I think fighters like Arona are a good example of this. He is aggressive in the sense that he engages in standup and actively attempts takedowns, but his striking is really only there to set up takedowns which are used for nothing but Lay n Pray tactics where he throws just enough punches not to get stood back up. None of it really falls under the category of effort to finish the fight despite the fact that I would classify it as aggression and it does tend to result in him maintaining the "dominant" position most often.

I think that there are many other factors, one might argue that stomps and knees to the head on the ground increase the pace somewhat, as stomping offers a viable option for a standing fighter to engage someone attempting to lure them into his guard other than just leg kicks, and that knees to the head make the north-south and sidemount positions FAR more viable options, opening up a much bigger window for ground striking tactics.

Ultimately I think the 2 that I listed are the largest factors and the only ones I would strongly like to see other orgs. adopt. I think they are also the only ones that are universal, in that they help to maintain a high pace in any fight, whereas certain fighters will never really make use of stomps and knees on the ground. I also think that ten minute opening rounds force fighters to focus much more on conditioning, allowing them to maintain a higher pace for longer. What does everyone else think?
zephead
6/21/07 6:10:03PM
Just what this website was missing, a Pride vs. UFC thread.
richieb19
6/21/07 6:10:40PM
I think people like to criticize on the ten point must system all too much, however I have always stated that yellow cards to improve passivity at the cost of 10% of a fighters purse is a great idea in any promotion...
Aether
6/21/07 6:17:18PM
I have no problem with the ten point must system, you can change the judging criteria without changing the scoring system entirely.
Mastodon2
6/21/07 6:30:32PM
I think its the scoring system that prevented people from stalling, and the card system was an augmentary deterrent.
shackle
6/21/07 6:41:04PM
No kiddingHaha yah looks like a copy/paste right from sherdog.

Just what this website was missing, a Pride vs. UFC thread.


I've found out it's not worth fussing about you will never win. Your not going to change a true fans mind no matter what you say weather they like ufc or pride. People will fight to the death over a opinion.

Me I lean a little towards ufc though.

Here are my reasons:
1. The whole better fighters thing hasn't been fully proven or either side.
2. Pride= japan UFC= USA
3. Pride attracts anime nerds imo I hate the production I hate the light shows, and the screaming woman.
4. I like the cage (the ring people fall out, fights have to be moved... ect)
5. I like the commentors better for the UFC. (did anyone see when Randleman ko'd cro cop... the guy just kept screaming. It was very annoying)

I'm not going to say I'm right your all wrong like most people this is just how I feel about it. IF you don't like it oh well I'm not gonna fuss about it it's pointless.

EDIT: also dana has been offering bonuses now for fights of the night or KO's he has said it pre show alot.

Mastodon2
6/21/07 6:52:24PM

Posted by shackle


3. Pride attracts anime nerds imo I hate the production I hate the light shows, and the screaming woman.





I have never, in all my time on MMA forums, meeting MMA fans and training with them, met an Anime fan in these communities.
shackle
6/21/07 6:56:27PM
I'm not the only one to say that. It was posted on sherdog (as news) news along time ago when they where comparing fan base of the organizations. It's a opinion I never said it was a fact.

Along the line of "Anime fans are drawn to pride" I'll see if I can find the news post. ( most likely can't though it was months ago)

I'm not going to say your wrong though, cause I could be thats just what I think. In my opinion pride to seems to have a anime feel about it with their production.

I do like pride though... I've watched many shows, and liked them alot just I favor the UFC just a little due to the reasons I said.


Posted by Mastodon2


Posted by shackle


3. Pride attracts anime nerds imo I hate the production I hate the light shows, and the screaming woman.





I have never, in all my time on MMA forums, meeting MMA fans and training with them, met an Anime fan in these communities.

Aether
6/21/07 7:05:00PM
well if you read what I wrote you would realize this isn't a matter of PRIDE vs UFC, it's a question about how the universal rules could best be changed to reduce stalling and promote more action in fights. The fact that I cited PRIDE as the organization that I felt did this the best so far doesn't make it a PRIDE vs UFC thread.

In fact I didn't draw a single comparison to the UFC anywhere in the post... Can you find one for me?
Aether
6/21/07 7:08:14PM
Apparently no one actually read anything that I wrote. Nowhere in this thread did I say "Is PRIDE better than UFC" or "Which organization is your favourite" I asked which organization you feel most consistently has the fights with the most action and what rules you think are responsible for the difference.
shackle
6/21/07 7:16:49PM
"I have however also always maintained that PRIDE has higher-paced fights more consistently than any other organization"

Then who are you comparing pride to? The way you said it doens't sound like just about the rules. It sounds kinda like your saying some the rules should be just like pride's rules. This is what started the Pride vs UFC thing cause they are the biggest names in MMA.

"losing a couple thousand dollars for stalling is a pretty huge incentive to get out there and start working for the win. "

The UFC does pay fighters to finish fights too. Like "fight of the night" deals. So thats one thing you can rule out. I'm sure bodog, k1, and others do too to really good fights. It's not exactly the same, but almost. I think it's a great idea too. People will do crazy things for $$$$.



Posted by Aether

well if you read what I wrote you would realize this isn't a matter of PRIDE vs UFC, it's a question about how the universal rules could best be changed to reduce stalling and promote more action in fights. The fact that I cited PRIDE as the organization that I felt did this the best so far doesn't make it a PRIDE vs UFC thread.

In fact I didn't draw a single comparison to the UFC anywhere in the post... Can you find one for me?

hippysmacker
6/21/07 7:24:18PM
I feel it's not an organizational thing as much as a weight class thing. The smaller weights have always been, faster, with better endurance to me. Don't know if it is just a cardio thing , or a " little man's disease" thing like Dana said , but they seem to bring it on a more consistent basis to me. Now that the UFC has brought back the lightweights and Zuffa has the WEC doing feather and bantamweight bouts I think this bodes well for MMA fans. IMO the bigger guys can't help , but be inspired by their smaller counterparts. It's one if the reasons I enjoy shooto so much.
shackle
6/21/07 7:35:45PM
I agree.. look at the best recent fights most have been lightweight. Lightweights just are so quick with the small frames. Bigger guys just can't move as quick... most of the time.



Posted by hippysmacker

I feel it's not an organizational thing as much as a weight class thing. The smaller weights have always been, faster, with better endurance to me. Don't know if it is just a cardio thing , or a " little man's disease" thing like Dana said , but they seem to bring it on a more consistent basis to me. Now that the UFC has brought back the lightweights and Zuffa has the WEC doing feather and bantamweight bouts I think this bodes well for MMA fans. IMO the bigger guys can't help , but be inspired by their smaller counterparts. It's one if the reasons I enjoy shooto so much.

Aether
6/21/07 7:39:57PM
I'm comparing the rule set to _all MMA organizations_ which is what I wrote in the original post. I AM saying that other organizations should adopt some of PRIDE's rules I also think other organizations should adopt some of the UFC's rules.

The idea behind the post was to encourage people to give their opinions on what the most important rules for encouraging higher-paced fights are. The fact that I believe PRIDE implemented 2 of the most important ones doesn't make it a "PRIDE vs anything" thread. I also happen to think that the cage should be implemented as it prevents a lot of restarts and rope entanglement, but I don't think that makes nearly as big a difference as the 2 which I cited.

You're right, offering a bonus does give SOME incentive to finish the fight, but if you are almost positive that you can win with boring tactics (arlovski vs werdum, any arona fight, any ricco rodriguez fight) it offers much less incentive for you to take risks to finish early. Honestly I think that being punished for being too conservative is a far stronger incentive than potential reward for finishing on top of the fact that 10% of a fighter's purse will often be a WAY larger amount of money than the finishing bonuses the UFC offers. If a higher profile fighter loses 10% of their purse that can easily get into the tens of thousands of dollars, it's also something that is immediately on your mind. I don't believe that most fighters walk into the fight thinking "I can make an extra 2 grand if I beat him a certain way." but I DO believe that when a ref stops the fight, says you just lost 10% of your earnings and that you better start working that the fighter can't help but think about it.
Aether
6/21/07 7:51:46PM

Posted by hippysmacker

I feel it's not an organizational thing as much as a weight class thing. The smaller weights have always been, faster, with better endurance to me. Don't know if it is just a cardio thing , or a " little man's disease" thing like Dana said , but they seem to bring it on a more consistent basis to me. Now that the UFC has brought back the lightweights and Zuffa has the WEC doing feather and bantamweight bouts I think this bodes well for MMA fans. IMO the bigger guys can't help , but be inspired by their smaller counterparts. It's one if the reasons I enjoy shooto so much.



I agree that the lighter weight divisions are pretty much always going to be more action packed, but I still think that even comparing divisions you can see a difference. More than anything I think the cards push the pace. Imagine if Arlovski-Werdum had happened under a rule set where fighters were penalized for passivity. I doubt very much that Arlovski would have continued fighting the way he did. I can't blame him, he did what he needed to to win, but I can blame the rules for making that style of fighting a viable option.
rcg916
6/21/07 7:56:49PM
Hey, I like the screaming woman!!!! She rocks.
Aether
6/21/07 8:04:32PM
I think her name is Lenne Hardt... and I hate her. Actually I got used to it after a while, but the first PRIDE event with her that I ever watched I had to skip all of the introductions because I couldn't handle listening to her voice.
kaduey
6/21/07 8:46:57PM
This isn't even an issue anymore. The Pride vs. UFC era is over.
Aether
6/21/07 9:44:04PM
what??? How does PRIDE existing or not have anything to do with the ability to change rules in existing organizations? Dana White is trying to have knees on the ground permitted in the UFC right? So should he stop trying to do that now because they might dissolve PRIDE? Your logic is flawed, PRIDE existing or not has absolutely nothing to do with the rules implemented in other organizations.

I really am highly confused as to whether anyone honestly read anything that was written here or if they simply skimmed past the word "PRIDE" and decided to start preaching about PRIDE vs UFC threads. Maybe I expressed the question poorly in the beginning, I'm not particularly willing to clarify any farther at this point though.
wickerman
6/21/07 10:46:40PM
Pride has the card system, soccer kicks, stomps, and knees on the ground. I would say pride is more exciting.
hippysmacker
6/22/07 7:26:42AM

Posted by Aether


Posted by hippysmacker

I feel it's not an organizational thing as much as a weight class thing. The smaller weights have always been, faster, with better endurance to me. Don't know if it is just a cardio thing , or a " little man's disease" thing like Dana said , but they seem to bring it on a more consistent basis to me. Now that the UFC has brought back the lightweights and Zuffa has the WEC doing feather and bantamweight bouts I think this bodes well for MMA fans. IMO the bigger guys can't help , but be inspired by their smaller counterparts. It's one if the reasons I enjoy shooto so much.



I agree that the lighter weight divisions are pretty much always going to be more action packed, but I still think that even comparing divisions you can see a difference. More than anything I think the cards push the pace. Imagine if Arlovski-Werdum had happened under a rule set where fighters were penalized for passivity. I doubt very much that Arlovski would have continued fighting the way he did. I can't blame him, he did what he needed to to win, but I can blame the rules for making that style of fighting a viable option.



It's funny you should ,mention the Arlovski /Werdum fight particularly. That was the fight where Herb dean told them both at the beginning of the 3rd that the next one to retreat was going to get a point taken away. In addition to trying to spur the fighter's to action, the thing I liked most about that was he warned both of them. I didn't even know that was a rule they could enforce until then .As for Rules I prefer the cage to keep people from falling out of the ring and avoiding restarts and entanglements. Don't like footstomps or soccer kicks because I think they are most likely ways to cause a death in MMA. Like elbow's and knees on the ground. So if the UFC adds knees I'll be stoked.I think that will make people a lot more active on the ground, and cause fights to finish faster.I will repeat my long held stance on Yellow cards. I agree with the idea of yellow card's , but the practice doesn't always fit the theory. In Pride they seemed to definitely favor the Japanese fighter's. Judging, yellow cards, are both subjective. It's like communism, seems like a Utopian idea. Everyone has the same, we all work together blah.. blah.. blah..Their must always be someone in charge of the system, so everyone's not the same. If everyone got paid the same whether they worked hard or not, it punishes hard worker's and reward's slacker's. Yellow card's is similar because the people who decide who get them aren't always in agreement on the criteria. You have favoritism of fighter, fighting style, and possibly corruption thrown in the bargain. Also, some will try to fight by the spirit of the rule , go all out, and then leave openings. The other guy can just wait for someone like that to go for it, and capitalize on it. Again, I like the idea but I've seen Rampage, and many others, get a bunch of yellow card's when they definitely were not stalling.

Signal2112
6/22/07 8:46:07AM

Posted by shackle
2. Pride= japan UFC= USA



One of the reasons why Pride is better imo!

Furthermore, as for the "screaming" when Randleman beat Cro Cop, whats so bad about being enthusiastic about the sport and surprised by the KO? Had I not known the result of that fight before I first saw it I would have been surprised too.
hippysmacker
6/23/07 12:58:36AM

Posted by Signal2112


Posted by shackle
2. Pride= japan UFC= USA



One of the reasons why Pride is better imo!

Furthermore, as for the "screaming" when Randleman beat Cro Cop, whats so bad about being enthusiastic about the sport and surprised by the KO? Had I not known the result of that fight before I first saw it I would have been surprised too.



I'm not sure what you mean? The japanese seem more nationlist than US fans IMO.
Signal2112
6/23/07 7:09:50AM

Posted by hippysmacker

I'm not sure what you mean? The japanese seem more nationlist than US fans IMO.



Without getting drawn into a meritless debate about the value of nationalities in this case, I just much prefer the Japanese and the Japanese setting. Not that I would try and call the faults of the UFC the faults of America in any way, but those booing fans, Mike Goldberg and Joe Rogan, Dana White's poor teeth...gah.

hippysmacker
6/23/07 9:18:34AM
Ah , I see. You mean that the crowd is generally more knowledgeable and polite as a whole in Japan. Agreed. I misunderstood the nationalism angle, my bad .As for the restr . I like Rogan, can live with Goldberg, and I can honestly say I've never considered Dana Whites teeth
Aether
6/23/07 4:05:10PM
that's a good point about what herb dean did, but at the same time I think that what he did was essentially equivalent to having a card system that is never used. I don't know that either fighter believed him, or that I believed him personally, they continued to fight the same way and he didn't do anything about it. His threat basically acted as a deterrent on the same level that the cards act as a deterrent before they are used, that is to say, not very well at all. Fighters will stall despite the fact that they know there's the potential for them to lose money, but it always seems to me that once they actually DO get penalized they pick the pace up for fear of losing 20% instead of just 10%. Andrei probably also realized at that point in the fight that losing one point would make no difference to the outcome regardless, and werdum was doing what he could to push the pace which was not very much unfortunately.
Aether
6/23/07 4:31:08PM
as far as the bias issue, I don't think that should really even come into play. Any system can be abused through bias. Judges can and have shown preference towards fighters in the past (sakuraba vs mezger OWGP 2000?) and essentially any system can be exploited/abused in one way or another, all anyone can really do to prevent such exploitation is ensure that you are picking professional, objective referees, or at best make a rule stating that the judges have the power to veto a referees decision to give a fighter a card if they feel it is unjust. Ultimately the only way to remove bias from any system subjective in nature is to minimize it by picking objective arbitrators OR make the decision subject to review by multiple people.
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