Not being able to debate because I am white...

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warglory
7/25/12 11:28:41AM
So I recently had a fall out with my best friend's girlfriend, who is black. Her career and entire attitude is centered around exposing institutional racism, but she is extreme in her views. Case in point, she posted an article on fb, where the author made the assertion that white people are more prone to mass murders in public spaces, because white people feel more comfortable in public spaces because of white privilege. Now, by nature, I love to debate. I thought this article was full of holes, because there was no sociological evidence to support this claim as posted in the article, and I am comfortable enough with myself (i.e. being white and male), that I don't get scared to debate with minorities about hot topics. So we get into it, I present my points and evidence to the contrary of what the article states, and then she comes out with this diatribe about how because I am a white male, who gets to play "judge and god", that I don't have a freaking clue. Wow. That blew me away. I told my friend about this, who I think has been suckered into what I consider to be white guilt, he defended her, despite the fact that I never made any personal accusations of any kind towards her. I took this as a racist statement, and took it to heart also.

I get the vibe that many people like my friend's gf, who are minorities, feel like because white men are privileged, their opinions don't hold as much weight as everyone else. Am I looking too far into this? Should I not be upset by this? He emailed me later and said that I shouldn't take it personally, that she has had different life experiences than me, and that I am the one who needs to discover the truth about what it means to be someone other than a white guy. I dunno, I call BS.

I don't want to turn this into a debate about race, I am just curious about people's opinion on my reaction.
BuffaloDave
7/25/12 11:45:08AM
Seriously, just let it go.

2 things,

1st You're trying to debate a Female, 2nd You're trying to debate a Black Female about racism.


george112
7/25/12 11:48:11AM
I personally no matter how much I care about a subject and don't agree with it I won't argue with a minority.


The reason being is its just plain pointless.
Nothing you or me can say will change their minds or make them think differently.

Just not worth the hours of arguing to me
Aether
7/25/12 11:54:43AM
Ironic and hypocritical all at once.

Anyone who bases their life on exposing racism, and then uses the justification of "because you are a white male your opinion is invalid" is automatically a hypocrite.

She has just as little experience being a white male as you do being a black female, anyone who dismisses an opinion based on the colour of a person's skin and not the logical consistency of the argument is being quite racist and illogical, whether they're black or white.
george112
7/25/12 12:11:27PM
Should have told her to ask this man for his opinion about race
tcunningham
7/25/12 12:11:53PM
you are on the right track. keep calling BS where BS needs to be called regardless of the topic. she will continue to wallow in her own personal downfall and continue to blame everybody else. dont sweat it bro
cowcatcher
7/25/12 12:14:05PM
Is there some sort of prize if you win?

If not then what's the point when all that can come of it is a strained relationship with your best friend's girl, and probably him too?

You're better off leaving it alone, I know a black woman's fury firsthand, and you don't want to be in the way of that shitstorm.
Budgellism
7/25/12 12:29:52PM

Posted by cowcatcher

Is there some sort of prize if you win?

If not then what's the point when all that can come of it is a strained relationship with your best friend's girl, and probably him too?

You're better off leaving it alone, I know a black woman's fury firsthand, and you don't want to be in the way of that shitstorm.



This all day
FastKnockout
7/25/12 12:31:39PM

Posted by Aether

Ironic and hypocritical all at once.

Anyone who bases their life on exposing racism, and then uses the justification of "because you are a white male your opinion is invalid" is automatically a hypocrite.

She has just as little experience being a white male as you do being a black female, anyone who dismisses an opinion based on the colour of a person's skin and not the logical consistency of the argument is being quite racist and illogical, whether they're black or white.



Ding Ding Ding
grappler0000
7/25/12 12:34:14PM
This


Posted by Aether

Ironic and hypocritical all at once.

Anyone who bases their life on exposing racism, and then uses the justification of "because you are a white male your opinion is invalid" is automatically a hypocrite.

She has just as little experience being a white male as you do being a black female, anyone who dismisses an opinion based on the colour of a person's skin and not the logical consistency of the argument is being quite racist and illogical, whether they're black or white.



and this


Posted by cowcatcher

Is there some sort of prize if you win?

If not then what's the point when all that can come of it is a strained relationship with your best friend's girl, and probably him too?



are all you really need to know. I'm not saying to cower into a corner, but be very careful pressing forward...and know when to just leave it alone.
Chael_Sonnen
7/25/12 12:49:28PM
She is ignorant - - - that's like saying black people only feel comfortable killing each other in the ghetto's, not in public spaces, like white people, etc.

Stupid, stupid, stupid. My black friends would have a field day with this chick....I'll leave it at that.
FlashyG
7/25/12 12:58:21PM
I'm not sure how it applies, but for some reason your story made me think of this

Louis CK - Being White
prophecy033
7/25/12 1:12:10PM
I've been seeing TONS of comments about the Penn State issue, Catholic Priests and the Aurora Shooting where "people" say "you white people" this, "you white people" that. Bringing race into any conversation where it doesn't need to be is bordering on inappropriate. When I hear or read people doing that I write their views off as extreme and misguided
lohmann
7/25/12 1:36:12PM

Posted by warglory

So we get into it, I present my points and evidence to the contrary of what the article states, and then she comes out with this diatribe about how because I am a white male, who gets to play "judge and god", that I don't have a freaking clue.



If you do not mind sharing, what was your counter-argument?
airkerma
7/25/12 1:40:34PM
Amusingly enough CNN published an OpEd yesterday where a woman broke down the numbers and made the case that males are far more likely to commit murder. Of course, not a single case was presented as anything other than a number, since then it wouldn't be as easy to make her statement. However, imagine the uproar if CNN published an OpEd about the lack of women in applied sciences, physics in particular. I hate letting these things go too man, it feels like an injustice in the sense that they can continue to spew BS as fact with no restrictions. After things cool down, my usual stance is to make sarcastic remarks that show the flaws in their arguments, but based on just what you've posted, she sounds like she would blame the white man for sarcasm etc etc...
kopower
7/25/12 1:43:03PM
I think you're fighting a losing battle here. You could show her countless articles and evidence supporting your claim, and it still wouldn't be enough. It reminds me a little of this episode from South Park.

Fast forward about 45 seconds in.

Link
pmoney
7/25/12 1:54:28PM
I think racism is a problem only for those who fixate on it. My sisters are 50% mexican, my brother in law is a Muslim from Africa, my uncle is a Jew, and I have a gay aunt. Be that as it may, plus the way I was raised, I try to never to discriminate. My friends are just as diverse.

However, there are certain things I won't tolerate, and that includes being blamed for the problems of others, regardless of race. It's not the white man's fault black people are the overwhelming majority in the US prison systems. It's not our fault ethnic people have SO many kids out of wedlock. It's not our fault that there are so many absentee dads. Look at Barack Obama. Isn't he living proof that the system does not hold a brother down? That you can be what you want regardless of race?

I hate the "The CIA invented crack and introduced it to black communities" horse shit too. Even if that is true, who the fuck made you smoke the crack? I know I don't blame my friends for making me smoke weed, that was my own choice. Just like everything everyone does is their own choice. When I drive around town, I don't see a lot of homeless Asians or Jews. It's because their culture puts an emphasis on family and education instead of blaming others for their societal standing. Jews have been persecuted longer than any other group, and are probably still the most persecuted to this day. Yet I don't hear them crying about society not being designed for them to get ahead.

As it stands today, the most racism I see is directed towards white males and Jews. You can make fun of those two groups, and say whatever you want without worry of repercussion. Meanwhile I am sure my post here alone would be enough to have people calling me a racist. Now it could just be because I am in California. I am the minority here. 90% of my bosses have not been white. 90% of my co-workers aren't white. I get passed up for jobs I am more qualified for by people who aren't white. But you know what, if I want to move somewhere where there's a white majority, I will. But in my opinion, people who want to blame others for their station in life need to take a good, long look in the mirror and go fuck themselves.
warglory
7/25/12 2:08:45PM

Posted by cowcatcher

Is there some sort of prize if you win?

If not then what's the point when all that can come of it is a strained relationship with your best friend's girl, and probably him too?

You're better off leaving it alone, I know a black woman's fury firsthand, and you don't want to be in the way of that shitstorm.



Oh when she came at me with that, I basically ended the debate. She no longer wished to debate with me at that point, clearly, so there was not much to be said. I told her that what she said was insulting, and that my points were quite valid, and I basically left it at that and haven't said anything since.
warglory
7/25/12 2:35:45PM

Posted by lohmann


Posted by warglory

So we get into it, I present my points and evidence to the contrary of what the article states, and then she comes out with this diatribe about how because I am a white male, who gets to play "judge and god", that I don't have a freaking clue.



If you do not mind sharing, what was your counter-argument?



The original debate was spurred by this article:

.http://www.rolereboot.org/culture-and-politics/details/2012-07-why-most-mass-murderers-are-privileged-white-men

Which I essentially said was full of holes of logic, considering there have been several minority mass murderers who have perpetrated killings in public arenas.

These are the last posts we made.

Hers: The list of domestic terrorists involved in mass massacres is dominated by white people. The common theme is indiscriminate killing/ massacres in institutional/ public settings. Non- whites tend to kill individuals they know whereas white killers massacre strangers indiscriminately. Many see the connection as a consequence of disillusionment and mental breakdown of whites when the entitlements of white privilege are not forthcoming. Whether you agree or not whenever white privilege is brought up in a discussion and people who have a freaking clue share their perspective and their experiences, one white guy sets himself up as judge and god and we have the burden of proving things to him because if we can’t convince him, then either it doesn’t exist or it’s all in your heads. It doesn’t matter how many facts, figures, statistics, essays, dissertations, you could ressurect the Unabomber, Timothy McVeigh and ask Anders Breivik to testify and he still won’t believe you.
At the end of the day it’s not my obligation to confront the above mentioned display of white male privilege or stop people from acting like entitled demented sociopaths in general.

Me: Am I supposed to be the white guy being judge and god? That's pretty insulting if you are, because I'm not making judgments on anyone, merely asking questions and analyzing assertions which don't make much sense to me. And yes, if someone makes the argument that a whole demographic of humanity can end up as mass murderers, because of their social standing, than yes, the burden of proof is on them, those that make the assertion. I don't really consider that asking too much really.
prophecy033
7/25/12 2:35:58PM

Posted by pmoney

I think racism is a problem only for those who fixate on it. My sisters are 50% mexican, my brother in law is a Muslim from Africa, my uncle is a Jew, and I have a gay aunt. Be that as it may, plus the way I was raised, I try to never to discriminate. My friends are just as diverse.

However, there are certain things I won't tolerate, and that includes being blamed for the problems of others, regardless of race. It's not the white man's fault black people are the overwhelming majority in the US prison systems. It's not our fault ethnic people have SO many kids out of wedlock. It's not our fault that there are so many absentee dads. Look at Barack Obama. Isn't he living proof that the system does not hold a brother down? That you can be what you want regardless of race?

I hate the "The CIA invented crack and introduced it to black communities" horse shit too. Even if that is true, who the fuck made you smoke the crack? I know I don't blame my friends for making me smoke weed, that was my own choice. Just like everything everyone does is their own choice. When I drive around town, I don't see a lot of homeless Asians or Jews. It's because their culture puts an emphasis on family and education instead of blaming others for their societal standing. Jews have been persecuted longer than any other group, and are probably still the most persecuted to this day. Yet I don't hear them crying about society not being designed for them to get ahead.

As it stands today, the most racism I see is directed towards white males and Jews. You can make fun of those two groups, and say whatever you want without worry of repercussion. Meanwhile I am sure my post here alone would be enough to have people calling me a racist. Now it could just be because I am in California. I am the minority here. 90% of my bosses have not been white. 90% of my co-workers aren't white. I get passed up for jobs I am more qualified for by people who aren't white. But you know what, if I want to move somewhere where there's a white majority, I will. But in my opinion, people who want to blame others for their station in life need to take a good, long look in the mirror and go fuck themselves.

This is well said $, I can't prop you tho and thats a shame
cowcatcher
7/25/12 3:08:48PM

Posted by prophecy033

This is well said $, I can't prop you tho and thats a shame



Because you're white, right?
BlueSkiesBurn
7/25/12 3:42:49PM

Posted by warglory

So I recently had a fall out with my best friend's girlfriend, who is black. Her career and entire attitude is centered around exposing institutional racism, but she is extreme in her views. Case in point, she posted an article on fb, where the author made the assertion that white people are more prone to mass murders in public spaces, because white people feel more comfortable in public spaces because of white privilege. Now, by nature, I love to debate. I thought this article was full of holes, because there was no sociological evidence to support this claim as posted in the article, and I am comfortable enough with myself (i.e. being white and male), that I don't get scared to debate with minorities about hot topics. So we get into it, I present my points and evidence to the contrary of what the article states, and then she comes out with this diatribe about how because I am a white male, who gets to play "judge and god", that I don't have a freaking clue. Wow. That blew me away. I told my friend about this, who I think has been suckered into what I consider to be white guilt, he defended her, despite the fact that I never made any personal accusations of any kind towards her. I took this as a racist statement, and took it to heart also.

I get the vibe that many people like my friend's gf, who are minorities, feel like because white men are privileged, their opinions don't hold as much weight as everyone else. Am I looking too far into this? Should I not be upset by this? He emailed me later and said that I shouldn't take it personally, that she has had different life experiences than me, and that I am the one who needs to discover the truth about what it means to be someone other than a white guy. I dunno, I call BS.

I don't want to turn this into a debate about race, I am just curious about people's opinion on my reaction.



Wait a minute, what did you say there is no Sociological evidence to support?
BlueSkiesBurn
7/25/12 3:46:21PM
The article makes complete sense to me. I think he took some liberties with McIntosh's ideas, but it makes sense to me. I would have liked to have seen more citations, but I think his idea has tons of merit.
warglory
7/25/12 4:01:58PM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

The article makes complete sense to me. I think he took some liberties with McIntosh's ideas, but it makes sense to me. I would have liked to have seen more citations, but I think his idea has tons of merit.



Eh, I am not in the mood to debate this again. I am just going to say that I disagree with you.
BlueSkiesBurn
7/25/12 4:10:05PM

Posted by warglory


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

The article makes complete sense to me. I think he took some liberties with McIntosh's ideas, but it makes sense to me. I would have liked to have seen more citations, but I think his idea has tons of merit.



Eh, I am not in the mood to debate this again. I am just going to say that I disagree with you.



That's fine, but you posted the article and I have a background in Sociology. I'm here to tell you that your claims about white privilege not have sociological support are incorrect.

If that's what you're basing your argument upon, then it has absolutely no weight and I wouldn't suggest pressing it any further.

EDIT: My next post is to everyone BUT you.
infestructure
7/25/12 4:19:29PM
First of all - I'm proud of the playground, 20+ posts and no one has said
"she must need some white dick, she'll be OK."
yet. Or did I just say it? I did!

A bunch of good posts with no-one getting too hurt. Way to rise above the BS!

Secondly, I didn't read the article, but if the findings are that white males commit massacres more publicly - then it sounds about right (in the USA and perhaps the EU) but this girl sounds like she's on her high horse. What good is that going to?

Still, just take the moral high ground. At least you know white guys don't eat each people's faces when they take bath salts. She is probably mad none of her black male people want her, as they are too taken with white girls, or asians, or indians, or anyone not black
warglory
7/25/12 4:29:39PM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn


Posted by warglory


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

The article makes complete sense to me. I think he took some liberties with McIntosh's ideas, but it makes sense to me. I would have liked to have seen more citations, but I think his idea has tons of merit.



Eh, I am not in the mood to debate this again. I am just going to say that I disagree with you.



That's fine, but you posted the article and I have a background in Sociology. I'm here to tell you that your claims about white privilege not have sociological support are incorrect.

If that's what you're basing your argument upon, then it has absolutely no weight and I wouldn't suggest pressing it any further.

EDIT: My next post is to everyone BUT you.



No one made the argument that white privilege doesn't exist. I challenged the assertion of the article that white people are predisposed to public arenas when they commit their mass murders, and my argument was that virtually every race has committed mass murders in a public arena, and that isolating it to one race of white, simply because they are privileged, has no basis in fact. That's it, just wanted to clarify my point to help you understand, I don't intend on debating this again.
KingCmb
7/25/12 4:55:36PM

Posted by Budgellism


Posted by cowcatcher

Is there some sort of prize if you win?

If not then what's the point when all that can come of it is a strained relationship with your best friend's girl, and probably him too?

You're better off leaving it alone, I know a black woman's fury firsthand, and you don't want to be in the way of that shitstorm.



This all day




as true as it is its no excuse.

i dont think all people of color are rascist but the one in question clearly is if you want equality then dont say white people are any different from blacks even in public and certainly not more prone to mass murder

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Allen_Muhammad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Boyd_Malvo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Ferguson_%28mass_murderer%29


murder is something a sick PERSON does not a sick black person or a sick white person
BlueSkiesBurn
7/25/12 5:14:01PM

Posted by warglory

No one made the argument that white privilege doesn't exist. I challenged the assertion of the article that white people are predisposed to public arenas when they commit their mass murders, and my argument was that virtually every race has committed mass murders in a public arena, and that isolating it to one race of white, simply because they are privileged, has no basis in fact. That's it, just wanted to clarify my point to help you understand, I don't intend on debating this again.




Since the entire debate is centered on the discussion of White Privilege, I guess I will start with this. First, this is a very real concept in Sociology. Since you two are debating the topic of it, I will assume both of you have read the article by Peggy McIntosh. If neither one of you have, then this debate is pretty pointless.

There's plenty of evidence to support the notion of white privilege and white people controlling spaces. That said, this isn't an issue of white privilege. This is an issue of Anomie. The original author makes some interesting points and I am sure they are contributing factor, but both go against what Durkheim and Merton posit.

Peggy McIntosh's White Privilege was supposed to be an article about general considerations white people don't make because they're incapable of seeing them due to their skin. It's part of the taken-for-granted world that Berger developed. The article was NOT a causal link to crime statistics. As such, it cannot be applied to criminological theory

Merton's typology of deviance is considered to be preeminent theory in sociology regarding reasons people do what they do. If anything, all the sociological evidence indicates that Whites are LESS likely to commit murders like this because they have more of a connection to society.

If you were to take a look at McIntosh's article, you'd see a clear pattern within the piece. That's a patter of having racial ties and social capital. Those particular aspects go against the very notion of being disconnected that accompanies anomie.

That said, there is plenty of sociological evidence to support the idea of white males owning space. It's a pretty common theme in sociology. Charlotte Gilman touches on this from the female aspect.

The very concept of "Herstory" supports the idea that white males tend to have history written in their favor. A suppressed minority voice, if you will.

If her argument is that there is an institutional disconnection between blacks and meso-level institutions, then she is 100% correct in her assertion.

If she is arguing that it's whites who have that disconnect, all of the evidence points to the contrary.

At the heart of the argument is the concept of anomie. One could make the argument that whites will feel a stronger disconnect from meso-level institutions because they are more reliant upon them. If a white male is alienated from something, the reactions could be more extreme due to the level of attachments with those institutions.

The stronger the feelings for something, the more likely you are to have an impulsive and violent reaction.

Now, to be honest, neither one of you are correct. You're trying to compare different motives, personalities, and feelings of disconnect and act as if they are correlated. You can't prove that this isn't the case any more than she can prove that this is the case.

Your first problem was saying that there is no sociological "proof." There is no such thing as proof in sociology. Every theory or article is based on one of three major paradigms and each of them have their criticisms.

Based on the fact that white people feel more disconnected from institutions when they are alienated from them, I don't think it's that much of a privilege to draw the line from white privilege to that being a possible explanation for mass-murder.
I am beginning to see why she called you god, though. It sounds like you decide what's acceptable, when you want to hear, and who you want to hear it from.

Word of advice, don't post topics like this if you aren't ready to see them through. When you explicitly ask for others opinions about a debate on racial issues, you should probably be ready to answer questions.

What do I know, though? Not like I took these classes:

- Women in Society
- Race & Ethnic Relations
- Social Psych
- Social Change & Social Movements
- Qualitative Methods
- Quantitative Methods
- Classical Sociological Theory
- Contemporary Sociological Theory
- Juvenile Delinquency
- Sociology of Crime
- Vision & Methods of Historical Sociology
- Gay/Lesbian Issues
- Advanced Sociological Theory
- Historiography
- Advanced Research Design & Methods.
- Technology & Society

I also didn’t teach 2 sociology classes at a 4-year university.

Oh, and I worked for the probation department for 3 years in the Repeat Offender Prevention Program.


warglory
7/25/12 5:23:18PM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn


Posted by warglory

No one made the argument that white privilege doesn't exist. I challenged the assertion of the article that white people are predisposed to public arenas when they commit their mass murders, and my argument was that virtually every race has committed mass murders in a public arena, and that isolating it to one race of white, simply because they are privileged, has no basis in fact. That's it, just wanted to clarify my point to help you understand, I don't intend on debating this again.




Since the entire debate is centered on the discussion of White Privilege, I guess I will start with this. First, this is a very real concept in Sociology. Since you two are debating the topic of it, I will assume both of you have read the article by Peggy McIntosh. If neither one of you have, then this debate is pretty pointless.

There's plenty of evidence to support the notion of white privilege and white people controlling spaces. That said, this isn't an issue of white privilege. This is an issue of Anomie. The original author makes some interesting points and I am sure they are contributing factor, but both go against what Durkheim and Merton posit.

Peggy McIntosh's White Privilege was supposed to be an article about general considerations white people don't make because they're incapable of seeing them due to their skin. It's part of the taken-for-granted world that Berger developed. The article was NOT a causal link to crime statistics. As such, it cannot be applied to criminological theory

Merton's typology of deviance is considered to be preeminent theory in sociology regarding reasons people do what they do. If anything, all the sociological evidence indicates that Whites are LESS likely to commit murders like this because they have more of a connection to society.

If you were to take a look at McIntosh's article, you'd see a clear pattern within the piece. That's a patter of having racial ties and social capital. Those particular aspects go against the very notion of being disconnected that accompanies anomie.

That said, there is plenty of sociological evidence to support the idea of white males owning space. It's a pretty common theme in sociology. Charlotte Gilman touches on this from the female aspect.

The very concept of "Herstory" supports the idea that white males tend to have history written in their favor. A suppressed minority voice, if you will.

If her argument is that there is an institutional disconnection between blacks and meso-level institutions, then she is 100% correct in her assertion.

If she is arguing that it's whites who have that disconnect, all of the evidence points to the contrary.

At the heart of the argument is the concept of anomie. One could make the argument that whites will feel a stronger disconnect from meso-level institutions because they are more reliant upon them. If a white male is alienated from something, the reactions could be more extreme due to the level of attachments with those institutions.

The stronger the feelings for something, the more likely you are to have an impulsive and violent reaction.

Now, to be honest, neither one of you are correct. You're trying to compare different motives, personalities, and feelings of disconnect and act as if they are correlated. You can't prove that this isn't the case any more than she can prove that this is the case.

Your first problem was saying that there is no sociological "proof." There is no such thing as proof in sociology. Every theory or article is based on one of three major paradigms and each of them have their criticisms.

Based on the fact that white people feel more disconnected from institutions when they are alienated from them, I don't think it's that much of a privilege to draw the line from white privilege to that being a possible explanation for mass-murder.
I am beginning to see why she called you god, though. It sounds like you decide what's acceptable, when you want to hear, and who you want to hear it from.

Word of advice, don't post topics like this if you aren't ready to see them through. When you explicitly as for others opinions about a debate on racial issues, you should probably be ready to answer questions.

What do I know, though? Not like I took these classes:

- Women in Society
- Race & Ethnic Relations
- Social Psych
- Social Change & Social Movements
- Qualitative Methods
- Quantitative Methods
- Classical Sociological Theory
- Contemporary Sociological Theory
- Juvenile Delinquency
- Sociology of Crime
- Vision & Methods of Historical Sociology
- Gay/Lesbian Issues
- Advanced Sociological Theory
- Historiography
- Advanced Research Design & Methods.
- Technology & Society

I also didn’t teach 2 sociology classes at a 4-year university.

Oh, and I worked for the probation department for 3 years in the Repeat Offender Prevention Program.





Dude why are you showing us your resume? Are you bragging or something?


This isn't a sociological forum, it's a debate, and you can definitely provide proof for your assertions with studies, which she didn't do. I assume you read the debate through fb, otherwise, I'm not really sure how you can make judgements on me without having read the debate yourself.

And if you read my op, I wasn't asking for opinions about our original debate, I was asking for opinions about my reaction to her comments. The only reason why I posted it, was because someone was curious.
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