700 BILLION DOLLAR BAILOUT

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POLL: Should the Goverment hand over $700,000,000
Yes it what needs to happen 39% (17)
NO, wellfare for the greedy 61% (27)
cowcatcher
10/2/08 7:52:58AM
the thing that bothers me most is that when the airlines needed to get bailed out the govt was there, now that the banks are belly up, the govt is there, eventually more and more huge money businesses are going to figure that if worse comes to worse there will always be a "bailout", for lack of a better term, and the glass ceiling of govt spending is going to come crashing down and hard. meanwhile these businesses are going to be able to get by after being helped out, when for years before they were in trouble they abused capitalism and rendered services at prices inflated far beyond what was necessary to still turn a very good profit and lined the top dogs pockets. at some point when capitalism is abused by any company or line of business the govt is supposed to step in and put an end to that, but it hasnt happened and now the fan is covered in a smelly brown substance. the systems faults are starting to really show, and not just to the educated few, but to everyone, and unfortunately it may be too late for us to return to any period we would like to call the glory days. its a scary time, especially when raising kids and seeing what my future and, more importantly, theirs may hold.

on a side note, a lot of what you both said is spot on both rush and jackelope, unfortunately, we can banter all day and make educated guesses how the bailout will help, but until it moves into action there isnt any way of knowing if it will truly be the saving grace its supposed to be and thats damn scary too.
DCRage
10/3/08 10:21:31AM
Take this for what it's worth related to the bailout, but Wachovia just got bought up by Wells Fargo. It's a $15+ billion all-stock deal. One good thing (maybe) about this deal is that government assistance won't be needed. Good for probably everyone involved except Citigroup, who planned to buy Wachovia and would've needed government help to do so. Wells Fargo hasn't been immune to the credit problems but is said to be in better shape than other banks thanks to fewer subprime mortgages.
Jackelope
10/3/08 10:56:31AM
Just proves that if given time the markets will right themselves. Granted fewer banks means more monopolies, but as long as the government doesn't allow one to buy all of them we will be alright.
DCRage
10/3/08 11:49:51AM
I don't think whichever agency oversees that (either Justice or SEC I think) would allow that, there's either rules against that or everybody of course would complain and the whole thing probably wouldn't go through as a result. It definitely would be a lose-lose for all of us consumers.
ncordless
10/3/08 12:23:54PM

Posted by Jackelope

Just proves that if given time the markets will right themselves. Granted fewer banks means more monopolies, but as long as the government doesn't allow one to buy all of them we will be alright.



Not really. We are not out of the woods on this thing at all. I am not happy with the bailout, but not because I have some kind of paranoia that we will go commie (we won't do anything like that), but because all the money goes to the top and not to the people who can't pay their mortgages.

I have been shying away from this thread because I honestly didn't want to get into it with people that don't know anything about it... but now I see that that's the wrong attitude and that if the word isn't spread people get all kinds of crazy ideas in there head. So... here are the facts, and my opinion of what needs to be done. First lets talk about who's at fault in the mortgage crisis:

1- Joe six-pack (i hate that term) and his mortgage he couldn't afford. With the booming housing market of a couple years ago, the price of housing rose above what most people could afford. What do I mean by afford? Well the standard used to be at least 20% down payment, and that the combined monthly installment and insurance will equal less than 28% of buyers monthly available income. People need to have equity in their home so that they are responsible for it. Buyers who didn't meet these qualifications should have bought a less expensive house, but in the market and in keeping up with the Jones', most didn't and anytime someone gets into a contract they can't perform (barring unforseen circumstances) they have done something wrong. But why were people allowed to buy outside their means?
2- the mortgage brokers and the commisson system of sub-prime mortgages and teaser rates they worked in.

I have run out of time for now, but I will continue on later. Feel free to ask any questions about what I've said so far that you may have.
Jackelope
10/3/08 12:38:31PM
Yeah I figured I'd catch hell for that post.

As a homeowner I assure you I'm very observant to what's going on with this crisis and who's to blame. If you look earlier in the thread you'll see that I place the blame on the same people as you do, only I let the blame ride out all the way to the top because that's where it needs to go. People were allowed to do STATED income to get home loans. Now, really, how can you not blame the organizations that put that into play? Sure the now defunct homeowner is a retard for jumping into something he couldn't afford, but the people who allowed this to happen (remember, it goes all the way to the top) should have known better, did know better, but were forced into giving out these loans by certain organizations and certain government officials.

I'm WAY more for allowing the markets to correct themselves than attempting to inject them with fake money. Especially when it's porked all to hell. Some people are going to go down hard, but that's the way it is. Why the hell if you're already in debt thanks to a bunch of crappy loans would you want to infuse another crappy loan? The government borrowing against it's own debt is not a good idea and I fail to see how anybody can argue that it is.

It's just like lies... one lie leads to another, which leads to another, which leads to another until you get to the point that you believe your own lies and don't know what the truth is anymore and you've lost all credibility. Why would you take out a ******* loan to put in the stock market? That's a ridiculous idea and if it were guaranteed to work there'd be a WHOLE HELL OF A LOT of rich people in this country.



DCRage
10/3/08 1:31:36PM
THE BILL HAS PASSED. 263-171 in favor.

Edit: If there's one thing in it I won't complain about, it's that the AMT patch to protect 26 million people from a surprise $2000 average spike in their tax bill next year should be included. That might save some of us from a big unexpected debt.
Jackelope
10/3/08 2:04:05PM
So basically it doesn't pass when it's smaller and more to the point. However, once it goes through the Senate and gets loaded full of a bunch of bullshit then it's o.k.

Sweet
Kracker_Jap
10/6/08 9:53:20PM
Update: the bail out didn't work
Jackelope
10/6/08 10:36:30PM

Posted by Kracker_Jap

Update: the bail out didn't work

ncordless
10/6/08 10:58:41PM

Posted by Kracker_Jap

Update: the bail out didn't work


Yeah. Why wouldn't one of the most complicated and expensive economic emergency plans (that your candidate voted for) work in one day?
Kracker_Jap
10/6/08 11:02:37PM

Posted by ncordless


Posted by Kracker_Jap

Update: the bail out didn't work


Yeah. Why wouldn't one of the most complicated and expensive economic emergency plans (that your candidate voted for) work in one day?



Because it was ruined simply by the fact that your candidate voted for it too....
JohnnyNapalm
10/7/08 12:16:34PM
Nothing to see here.

Look in the mirror...

There's enemy #1.

We're all a bunch of greedy bastards and deserve whatever comes our way.
ncordless
10/8/08 3:01:02AM

Posted by Kracker_Jap


Posted by ncordless


Posted by Kracker_Jap

Update: the bail out didn't work


Yeah. Why wouldn't one of the most complicated and expensive economic emergency plans (that your candidate voted for) work in one day?



Because it was ruined simply by the fact that your candidate voted for it too....



Ahh, I see. Well it is passed now. Now if only your candidate gets his way and we get the additional three hundred billion dollar "investment" in bad mortgages... the stock market will go up... right?
Kracker_Jap
10/8/08 3:18:08AM

Posted by ncordless


Posted by Kracker_Jap


Posted by ncordless


Posted by Kracker_Jap

Update: the bail out didn't work


Yeah. Why wouldn't one of the most complicated and expensive economic emergency plans (that your candidate voted for) work in one day?



Because it was ruined simply by the fact that your candidate voted for it too....



Ahh, I see. Well it is passed now. Now if only your candidate gets his way and we get the additional three hundred billion dollar "investment" in bad mortgages... the stock market will go up... right?



Don't get it too twisted I wasn't for the bail out or do I want help from the government with my bad mortgage....

I'm about as anti government intervention as they come, wait well not as anti government as your candidates friends *cough* William Ayers

And I guess if I had to choose the lesser of to evils Obama who was the second highest senator under Dodd to receive money from Freddy and fanny (only difference is Obama achieved that high standard in 165 days) or Barney Frank who had a ten year gay relation ship with a high level official from Countrywide...... I would choose Obama

But since i don't have to choose an evil I will go with McCain and his stupid 300billion dollar idea with the mortgages (Mine does suck)
ncordless
10/9/08 3:19:14PM

Posted by Kracker_Jap


Posted by ncordless


Posted by Kracker_Jap


Posted by ncordless


Posted by Kracker_Jap

Update: the bail out didn't work


Yeah. Why wouldn't one of the most complicated and expensive economic emergency plans (that your candidate voted for) work in one day?



Because it was ruined simply by the fact that your candidate voted for it too....



Ahh, I see. Well it is passed now. Now if only your candidate gets his way and we get the additional three hundred billion dollar "investment" in bad mortgages... the stock market will go up... right?



Don't get it too twisted I wasn't for the bail out or do I want help from the government with my bad mortgage....

I'm about as anti government intervention as they come, wait well not as anti government as your candidates friends *cough* William Ayers

And I guess if I had to choose the lesser of to evils Obama who was the second highest senator under Dodd to receive money from Freddy and fanny (only difference is Obama achieved that high standard in 165 days) or Barney Frank who had a ten year gay relation ship with a high level official from Countrywide...... I would choose Obama

But since i don't have to choose an evil I will go with McCain and his stupid 300billion dollar idea with the mortgages (Mine does suck)



I like how you try to change the topic once you realize that your candidate is going to lose because of it.
And really, if the best you got is to try to insinuate a friendship between my candidate and a person he met twice... which was a meeting sponsered by a contributer to your candidate's campaign, I am feeling pretty good about my candidate's chances at this point.

I don't really understand why your side would want to open up the "guilt by association" issue. The last time we had a financial scandal... the S&L, your candidate was one of the main politicians involved.

Whatever. I am glad to see your side try to get away from anything meaningful and start playing dirty. Keep using my candidate's name in disparaging ways. The american people are not as stupid as your side would like to think. People in this country are wise to it, and it's just going to make it that much easier to discredit your side as the mudslinging bigots they are.
iwannabesedated
10/9/08 3:41:36PM
Yeah the Ayers thing is ridiculous..I mean he held a Meet and Greet for Obama when Obama first got into politics..They served on the Same Education board together..When Obama was a measley "Community Organizer" Cause you know helping Kids with education and staying away from Drugs is such a bad thing.
Red-Dragon
10/9/08 5:02:18PM
Haha, you think it's bad in USA. The UK goverment has bailed out to the tidy sum of 500 billion POUNDS STERLING!!!!

At a cost of 20K Sterling per citizen. Count yourselves Fckin Lucky
ncordless
10/9/08 5:07:28PM

Posted by Red-Dragon

Haha, you think it's bad in USA. The UK goverment has bailed out to the tidy sum of 500 billion POUNDS STERLING!!!!

At a cost of 20K Sterling per citizen. Count yourselves Fckin Lucky



Yeah, but now you guys own part of your banks and will be getting more revenue than that when the economy turns around. We don't get anything with our money except bad mortgages...
Kracker_Jap
10/10/08 11:04:09AM

Posted by ncordless


Posted by Kracker_Jap


Posted by ncordless


Posted by Kracker_Jap


Posted by ncordless


Posted by Kracker_Jap

Update: the bail out didn't work


Yeah. Why wouldn't one of the most complicated and expensive economic emergency plans (that your candidate voted for) work in one day?



Because it was ruined simply by the fact that your candidate voted for it too....



Ahh, I see. Well it is passed now. Now if only your candidate gets his way and we get the additional three hundred billion dollar "investment" in bad mortgages... the stock market will go up... right?



Don't get it too twisted I wasn't for the bail out or do I want help from the government with my bad mortgage....

I'm about as anti government intervention as they come, wait well not as anti government as your candidates friends *cough* William Ayers

And I guess if I had to choose the lesser of to evils Obama who was the second highest senator under Dodd to receive money from Freddy and fanny (only difference is Obama achieved that high standard in 165 days) or Barney Frank who had a ten year gay relation ship with a high level official from Countrywide...... I would choose Obama

But since i don't have to choose an evil I will go with McCain and his stupid 300billion dollar idea with the mortgages (Mine does suck)



I like how you try to change the topic once you realize that your candidate is going to lose because of it.
And really, if the best you got is to try to insinuate a friendship between my candidate and a person he met twice... which was a meeting sponsered by a contributer to your candidate's campaign, I am feeling pretty good about my candidate's chances at this point.

I don't really understand why your side would want to open up the "guilt by association" issue. The last time we had a financial scandal... the S&L, your candidate was one of the main politicians involved.

Whatever. I am glad to see your side try to get away from anything meaningful and start playing dirty. Keep using my candidate's name in disparaging ways. The american people are not as stupid as your side would like to think. People in this country are wise to it, and it's just going to make it that much easier to discredit your side as the mudslinging bigots they are.



Let me give you a history lesson and telt you that Al Gore was up ten points in the polls around this time before the election and?? well he lost

2 times ???? HAHAHAHA If you think Obama only met with Ayers 2 times then you are in for a big supprise when McCain wins the election.....
The problem is that you can't overcome what you don't admit and since Obama has'nt admitted his working relaltionship with Ayers he can't beat the rap.. Trust me it will blow up in his face

As for the American people not being dumb??? I know thats why the elected Gore and and the ketchup bottles husband
disorderlyvision
10/10/08 2:36:42PM
Save the country Vote Third party.


Fxck, mccain and obama the both wanted this f'n bailout. they don't represent the people the represent big business.
ncordless
10/10/08 5:12:29PM

Posted by Kracker_Jap


Posted by ncordless


Posted by Kracker_Jap


Posted by ncordless


Posted by Kracker_Jap


Posted by ncordless


Posted by Kracker_Jap

Update: the bail out didn't work


Yeah. Why wouldn't one of the most complicated and expensive economic emergency plans (that your candidate voted for) work in one day?



Because it was ruined simply by the fact that your candidate voted for it too....



Ahh, I see. Well it is passed now. Now if only your candidate gets his way and we get the additional three hundred billion dollar "investment" in bad mortgages... the stock market will go up... right?



Don't get it too twisted I wasn't for the bail out or do I want help from the government with my bad mortgage....

I'm about as anti government intervention as they come, wait well not as anti government as your candidates friends *cough* William Ayers

And I guess if I had to choose the lesser of to evils Obama who was the second highest senator under Dodd to receive money from Freddy and fanny (only difference is Obama achieved that high standard in 165 days) or Barney Frank who had a ten year gay relation ship with a high level official from Countrywide...... I would choose Obama

But since i don't have to choose an evil I will go with McCain and his stupid 300billion dollar idea with the mortgages (Mine does suck)



I like how you try to change the topic once you realize that your candidate is going to lose because of it.
And really, if the best you got is to try to insinuate a friendship between my candidate and a person he met twice... which was a meeting sponsered by a contributer to your candidate's campaign, I am feeling pretty good about my candidate's chances at this point.

I don't really understand why your side would want to open up the "guilt by association" issue. The last time we had a financial scandal... the S&L, your candidate was one of the main politicians involved.

Whatever. I am glad to see your side try to get away from anything meaningful and start playing dirty. Keep using my candidate's name in disparaging ways. The american people are not as stupid as your side would like to think. People in this country are wise to it, and it's just going to make it that much easier to discredit your side as the mudslinging bigots they are.



Let me give you a history lesson and telt you that Al Gore was up ten points in the polls around this time before the election and?? well he lost

2 times ???? HAHAHAHA If you think Obama only met with Ayers 2 times then you are in for a big supprise when McCain wins the election.....
The problem is that you can't overcome what you don't admit and since Obama has'nt admitted his working relaltionship with Ayers he can't beat the rap.. Trust me it will blow up in his face

As for the American people not being dumb??? I know thats why the elected Gore and and the ketchup bottles husband



Hahaha. Keep it it up and see where it gets you.
ncordless
10/10/08 7:38:04PM

Posted by ncordless


Posted by Red-Dragon

Haha, you think it's bad in USA. The UK goverment has bailed out to the tidy sum of 500 billion POUNDS STERLING!!!!

At a cost of 20K Sterling per citizen. Count yourselves Fckin Lucky



Yeah, but now you guys own part of your banks and will be getting more revenue than that when the economy turns around. We don't get anything with our money except bad mortgages...



Hmm, now it seems that we might use some of the money to invest in the banks themselves.
cowcatcher
10/11/08 7:51:54AM

Posted by Kracker_Jap

Update: the bail out didn't work



i just caught this, F'N HILARIOUS, gotsta spread the love though
Kracker_Jap
10/12/08 10:24:45PM

Posted by disorderlyvision

Save the country Vote Third party.






So how will voting for a 3rd party candidate save the country???
Jackelope
10/12/08 10:28:54PM
It might free us from this two party system, but it might not. There's not enough 3rd party voters out there to make a splash. Unfortunately.

(and let's hope by third party we mean independents, not socialists or communists)
Kracker_Jap
10/12/08 10:33:44PM
The biggest effect of a third party candidate was Ross Perot....

He clearly made a huge inpact on that election but none there after
Rush
10/14/08 10:15:20AM
Looks like the "bailout" is working so far. The Dow Jones rebounded by going up 938 points, the biggest increase in history and almost double since the last (499) during the dot com era in 2000.
Kracker_Jap
10/14/08 11:10:49AM
could be the bailout or the fact that a lot of others countries last weekend began backing up there banks with government dollars
ncordless
10/14/08 3:14:28PM

Posted by Rush

Looks like the "bailout" is working so far. The Dow Jones rebounded by going up 938 points, the biggest increase in history and almost double since the last (499) during the dot com era in 2000.



We still have a long way to go before getting out of this mess. I am hoping for the best but the surge could actually be bad news in this sense... historically "supersurges" occur in the midst of economic turmoil.


I am glad to see that the US and rest of the world is putting money into the banks and buying shares, in effect nationalizing the system. If we are going to be asked to bailout the "financial wizards" of the world because they lost their gamble with the world's money, then we should get a say in how things are run in return.

I understand some people see a "free market" as some sort of sacred cow, and it is obvious that in most situations a free market with healthy competition free from most government controls is the best. But we cannot continue to entrust something as serious as our savings and the world's ability to use credit to a bunch of gamblers and thieves.

It is not in the best interest of anyone to have our financial institutions to continue to use the world's money to advance their personal gain without any interest in the rest of the world.
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