UFC 104 Shogun VS. Machida

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POLL: Shogun VS. Machida
Shogun KO/TKO 27% (21)
Shogun Sub. 3% (2)
Shogun Dec. 1% (1)
Machida KO/TKO 62% (49)
Machida Sub. 1% (1)
Machida Dec. 6% (5)
JackHammerXXX
6/1/09 10:22:21PM
Hughes was given a title shot after a boring fight with Lytle. And then he got thrashed by GSP, again. Yeah, he might have won against Serra, and I believe that Serra won there fight weeks ago, but fact remains, Matt is washed up and past his prime. Liddell was on a skid, and Shogun made retirement a priority for the man. So in the fashion he did win, and he won two fights, not just one, he is as deserving as Rashad was when he took Chuck out last Sept. right?

And credentials? Yes, they do play a part, especially when we're talking about fighters who have existed out of the UFC and all the yuppies attention spans.
Shogun is for real. Yes his conditioning is suspect. His work is not. Check the credentials. They speak for itself.
State_Champ
6/3/09 9:43:55AM


Rashad had a good winning streak in the ufc even against competitors who weren't past their prime. And, although I am not a Rashad fan, I can say that he looked a bit better in many of his fights that Shogun has looked recently.

I just don't feel that a fighter should get a title shot based on performances that were years ago, which must be the UFC's logic because I don't think Shogun has earned a title shot with his recent performances. But I also can't think of any one else who deserves a title shot.
It just bothers me that the UFC gives people 'Challenger' status just because the UFC feels like it.
Playground_Samurai
6/3/09 9:52:48AM

Posted by State_Champ
It just bothers me that the UFC gives people 'Challenger' status just because the UFC feels like it.



I don't think it's JUST the UFC. I think their are a lot of fans that agree with them that Shogun is a top contender and worthy of a title shot.
mkiv9secsupra
6/4/09 3:31:26AM

Posted by gspfan


Posted by State_Champ
It just bothers me that the UFC gives people 'Challenger' status just because the UFC feels like it.



I don't think it's JUST the UFC. I think their are a lot of fans that agree with them that Shogun is a top contender and worthy of a title shot.




seriously you have to be an idiot to believe anyone who beats liddell, rampage, arona, nogueira, overeem, and randleman is a top contender....... anyone who doesnt believe shogun is a contender needs to re-evaluate what the are talking about.
jack
6/4/09 10:56:03AM
Machida wins in the 2nd round by KO
State_Champ
6/4/09 3:39:52PM

Posted by mkiv9secsupra


Posted by gspfan


Posted by State_Champ
It just bothers me that the UFC gives people 'Challenger' status just because the UFC feels like it.



I don't think it's JUST the UFC. I think their are a lot of fans that agree with them that Shogun is a top contender and worthy of a title shot.




seriously you have to be an idiot to believe anyone who beats liddell, rampage, arona, nogueira, overeem, and randleman is a top contender....... anyone who doesnt believe shogun is a contender needs to re-evaluate what the are talking about.



I feel that Shogun beat 'rampage, arona, nogueira, overeem, and randleman' years ago and hasn't looked too impressive since coming into the UFC. He lost to Forrest Griffin, beat an old Mark Coleman, and an aging Chuck liddell and now he gets a title shot.
It's just my opinion, but I don't think Shogun deserves to fight for the belt. Obviously he is a good fighter, but he hasn't shown himself to be the killer that he was before.... Shogun's wins from Pride, which occured 2 or 3 years ago (I think), seem to be what fans think warrants this fight and that doesn't make sense in my mind.
And I can see why this fight is happening. I can see that Shogun is essentially the only option for the UFC to mark as a challenger right now and that seems like the wrong reason for a title fight to me.

Despite my reservations I am excited to see Shogun and Machida fight.
slapshot
6/4/09 5:53:56PM

Posted by State_Champ


Posted by mkiv9secsupra


Posted by gspfan


Posted by State_Champ
It just bothers me that the UFC gives people 'Challenger' status just because the UFC feels like it.



I don't think it's JUST the UFC. I think their are a lot of fans that agree with them that Shogun is a top contender and worthy of a title shot.




seriously you have to be an idiot to believe anyone who beats liddell, rampage, arona, nogueira, overeem, and randleman is a top contender....... anyone who doesnt believe shogun is a contender needs to re-evaluate what the are talking about.



I feel that Shogun beat 'rampage, arona, nogueira, overeem, and randleman' years ago and hasn't looked too impressive since coming into the UFC. He lost to Forrest Griffin, beat an old Mark Coleman, and an aging Chuck liddell and now he gets a title shot.
It's just my opinion, but I don't think Shogun deserves to fight for the belt. Obviously he is a good fighter, but he hasn't shown himself to be the killer that he was before.... Shogun's wins from Pride, which occured 2 or 3 years ago (I think), seem to be what fans think warrants this fight and that doesn't make sense in my mind.
And I can see why this fight is happening. I can see that Shogun is essentially the only option for the UFC to mark as a challenger right now and that seems like the wrong reason for a title fight to me.

Despite my reservations I am excited to see Shogun and Machida fight.


The UFC has always made fights this way, they have no official ranking so its never been about who they think "deserves" the chance more than the others. Its always been flexible match making and in this case who is more deserving than Rua............................ thats right nobody! Everyone that you could possibly put ahead of him is already fighting so whats the point of even complaining?
the_01
6/4/09 6:06:55PM

Posted by mkiv9secsupra


Posted by the_01

Gimme a break, the UFC couldnt come up with a decent opponent ? And they say this weight class is stacked.



#3. Rashad Evans is busy with #2. Rampage Jackson
#4. Forrest Griffin is busy fighting Anderson Silva
#5. Shogun Rua - Not Scheduled for a fight
#6. Wanderlei Silva is busy with Rich Franklin
#7. Dan Henderson is busy with Michael Bisping
#8. Keith Jardine is busy with Thiago Silva
#9. Chuck Liddell may be retired and wont get a shot at the belt again.
#10. Luis Arthur Cane - Not Scheduled for a fight

The only 3 guys in MMAPlayground's top 10 that are currently not scheduled are Shogun, Liddell, and Cane...... What other scenarios could possibly play out? Shogun vs Cane and hold the belt up for another 6-7 months? Let Shogun fight now and by the time the winner of that matchup is ready for another fight the winner of Rampage/Rashad or possibly Forrest will be ready for their title shots....

Shogun is the most deserving fighter that is not scheduled.....get over it people




Thanks for the clearification, thats logical. I respect when someone speaks and has written proof to back it up. Your the man, no wonder youve got so many props, you deserve every one of them. And one more from me. Thanks.
State_Champ
6/5/09 5:40:02PM

Posted by slapshot


Posted by State_Champ


Posted by mkiv9secsupra


Posted by gspfan


Posted by State_Champ
It just bothers me that the UFC gives people 'Challenger' status just because the UFC feels like it.



I don't think it's JUST the UFC. I think their are a lot of fans that agree with them that Shogun is a top contender and worthy of a title shot.




seriously you have to be an idiot to believe anyone who beats liddell, rampage, arona, nogueira, overeem, and randleman is a top contender....... anyone who doesnt believe shogun is a contender needs to re-evaluate what the are talking about.



I feel that Shogun beat 'rampage, arona, nogueira, overeem, and randleman' years ago and hasn't looked too impressive since coming into the UFC. He lost to Forrest Griffin, beat an old Mark Coleman, and an aging Chuck liddell and now he gets a title shot.
It's just my opinion, but I don't think Shogun deserves to fight for the belt. Obviously he is a good fighter, but he hasn't shown himself to be the killer that he was before.... Shogun's wins from Pride, which occured 2 or 3 years ago (I think), seem to be what fans think warrants this fight and that doesn't make sense in my mind.
And I can see why this fight is happening. I can see that Shogun is essentially the only option for the UFC to mark as a challenger right now and that seems like the wrong reason for a title fight to me.

Despite my reservations I am excited to see Shogun and Machida fight.


The UFC has always made fights this way, they have no official ranking so its never been about who they think "deserves" the chance more than the others. Its always been flexible match making and in this case who is more deserving than Rua............................ thats right nobody! Everyone that you could possibly put ahead of him is already fighting so whats the point of even complaining?



I was just trying to state my opinion.
That's the reason I use the forums.
iceliddell240
6/7/09 2:19:53PM
yo this is terrible matchup....shogun beating a 44 year old coleman in a boring fight, the beating a clearly over the hill chuck liddell doesnt mean he is back at all....shogun lost it, the funny part is he's only 27....machida by KO 2nd round
State_Champ
6/7/09 2:32:04PM

Machida (T)KO...round 2 maybe?
copcopps
6/8/09 9:05:37AM

Posted by iceliddell240

yo this is terrible matchup....shogun beating a 44 year old coleman in a boring fight, the beating a clearly over the hill chuck liddell doesnt mean he is back at all....shogun lost it, the funny part is he's only 27....machida by KO 2nd round


Took the words out of my mouth. IMO Rua's style's also tailor made for Machida IMO
slapshot
6/8/09 10:51:37AM
What the heck are you guys talking about? Lets get some inaccuracy's corrected, a punch drunk over the hill Liddell is still top 10 in the UFC and he could put away 3/4 of the division. So a win over liddell is still relevant even though its not what it meant four years ago.

Second LMAO Rua is not the style of fighter that is "taler made for Machida to walk over", Im also not saying Rua will walk over Machida either but if anything Rua's fight style should make him more difficult for Machida to beat.

Rua has a solid chin, good BJJ and vicious kicks, kicks that could be the difference in the fight. His leg kicks could slow Mach down as well as score points. If you can gimp up a leg that dose a lot to change the way Mach fights and other than Jardine I think Rua is one of the only fighters good enough to do it.

I dont think either fighter is "taylor made" to beat the other but both have skills that stand out as something that will cause the other a lot of problems. Rua can beat Machida and if he is healthy for training camp I will be picking him to win.

P.S. If you want to beat Mach you have to alter his footwork because he has the best footwork in the UFC. IMO if your a striker one of the best opportunity's to do that is powerful leg kicks that slow him down.
warglory
6/8/09 12:33:17PM

Posted by slapshot

What the heck are you guys talking about? Lets get some inaccuracy's corrected, a punch drunk over the hill Liddell is still top 10 in the UFC and he could put away 3/4 of the division. So a win over liddell is still relevant even though its not what it meant four years ago.




I respect your opinion and all, but Liddell is clearly no longer top 10 material, all of his fights since losing to Jackson have shown that. You have to win to maintain your status, history can't maintain your status forever. If he could beat 75% of the division, he needs to start showing us, because at this point in his career, he hasn't demonstrated that.

slapshot
6/8/09 2:52:58PM

Posted by warglory


Posted by slapshot

What the heck are you guys talking about? Lets get some inaccuracy's corrected, a punch drunk over the hill Liddell is still top 10 in the UFC and he could put away 3/4 of the division. So a win over liddell is still relevant even though its not what it meant four years ago.




I respect your opinion and all, but Liddell is clearly no longer top 10 material, all of his fights since losing to Jackson have shown that. You have to win to maintain your status, history can't maintain your status forever. If he could beat 75% of the division, he needs to start showing us, because at this point in his career, he hasn't demonstrated that.



Name them, name 10 205ers that without question should be ranked higher than Liddell and are in the UFC....
warglory
6/8/09 6:14:56PM

Posted by slapshot


Posted by warglory


Posted by slapshot

What the heck are you guys talking about? Lets get some inaccuracy's corrected, a punch drunk over the hill Liddell is still top 10 in the UFC and he could put away 3/4 of the division. So a win over liddell is still relevant even though its not what it meant four years ago.




I respect your opinion and all, but Liddell is clearly no longer top 10 material, all of his fights since losing to Jackson have shown that. You have to win to maintain your status, history can't maintain your status forever. If he could beat 75% of the division, he needs to start showing us, because at this point in his career, he hasn't demonstrated that.



Name them, name 10 205ers that without question should be ranked higher than Liddell and are in the UFC....



In no particular order:

Quinton Jackson
Keith Jardine
Forest Griffin
Rashad Evans
Lyoto Machida
Shogun Rua
Thiago Silva
Luiz Cane
Rich Franklin
Matt Hamill

Every one of these fighters has a better record in the last two years than Chuck Liddell (or in Shogun's case, just KOed him). All of Chuck's past accomplishments are essentially null and void, because everyone in this division is a gamer and needs to prove themselves to survive, including the legends. Chuck has shown he can't hack it in this division anymore, and would likely lose to all of these guys except for MAYBE Thiago Silva.

If Chuck was in virtually any other division except for maybe lightweight, he would potentially be top 10.


slapshot
6/8/09 7:40:52PM


Posted by warglory


Posted by slapshot


Name them, name 10 205ers that without question should be ranked higher than Liddell and are in the UFC....



In no particular order:

Quinton Jackson
Keith Jardine
Forest Griffin
Rashad Evans
Lyoto Machida
Shogun Rua
Thiago Silva
Luiz Cane
Rich Franklin
Matt Hamill

Every one of these fighters has a better record in the last two years than Chuck Liddell (or in Shogun's case, just KOed him). All of Chuck's past accomplishments are essentially null and void, because everyone in this division is a gamer and needs to prove themselves to survive, including the legends. Chuck has shown he can't hack it in this division anymore, and would likely lose to all of these guys except for MAYBE Thiago Silva.

If Chuck was in virtually any other division except for maybe lightweight, he would potentially be top 10.




Hamil, franklin and cane? come on now. You cant null and void a record that simply is valid no matter how hard you hate. The only one of the three you can make a case for is Franklin and you would have to use his past record in a lower weight class. TBH I can see Chuck ko'n all three of them and being very competitive with Keith Jardine and Forest Griffin as well.

The fact is most people here dont agree with you and rank Chuck at 9th in the UFC. a quarter of your list is not even ranked at all, much less higher than Chuck so clearly he is top ten material in the majority of fans eyes...
warglory
6/8/09 8:25:19PM

Posted by slapshot



Posted by warglory


Posted by slapshot


Name them, name 10 205ers that without question should be ranked higher than Liddell and are in the UFC....



In no particular order:

Quinton Jackson
Keith Jardine
Forest Griffin
Rashad Evans
Lyoto Machida
Shogun Rua
Thiago Silva
Luiz Cane
Rich Franklin
Matt Hamill

Every one of these fighters has a better record in the last two years than Chuck Liddell (or in Shogun's case, just KOed him). All of Chuck's past accomplishments are essentially null and void, because everyone in this division is a gamer and needs to prove themselves to survive, including the legends. Chuck has shown he can't hack it in this division anymore, and would likely lose to all of these guys except for MAYBE Thiago Silva.

If Chuck was in virtually any other division except for maybe lightweight, he would potentially be top 10.




Hamil, franklin and cane? come on now. You cant null and void a record that simply is valid no matter how hard you hate. The only one of the three you can make a case for is Franklin and you would have to use his past record in a lower weight class. TBH I can see Chuck ko'n all three of them and being very competitive with Keith Jardine and Forest Griffin as well.

The fact is most people here dont agree with you and rank Chuck at 9th in the UFC. a quarter of your list is not even ranked at all, much less higher than Chuck so clearly he is top ten material in the majority of fans eyes...



I'm not hating on Chuck, I am examining facts. Chuck has only won 1 fight out of his last 5 against Wanderlei Silva who is in equally tough circumstances. All the top level competition Chuck has fought, which has been those other 4 losses, he has lost hands down with 3 (T)KOs and a decision against Keith that should have been unanimous. Franklin, you're right, he hasn't fought as much at 205, but his showing against Hamill shows that he deserves to be in the mix, much more than Chuck at this point. People maintain Chuck as a top 10 fighter becaue of his mystique and nothing more. Facts are facts, and if Chuck was any other fighter, he would have been out of the UFC by now.
Metafour
6/8/09 10:15:24PM
I think Shogun has the best shot of any LHW at beating Machida at this time. I still do not think he will end up pulling it off though.
Pookie
6/8/09 10:24:47PM
Out of Franklin, Cane, and T. Silva - Thiago is the only one i can see Chuck beating the majority of the time.

Franklin mixes up his strikes well and should fluster Chuck in the same manner that Jardine did.

Cane has an accurate(albeit not so fast) outside power punching style, He throws straight punches and lands them when he does throw. Its going to come down to Liddell's wider punches going against Cane's chin, and Canes down the pipe punches against Liddell's chin. Smart money is on Cane in this one.
Not to mention that Cane has kicks to use as well.

Thiago's affinity for getting hit while coming in, is exactly why chuck would beat thiago a vast majority of the time. Dude just doesnt cover up, and although his GnP is absolutely vicious with the top control to keep himself in mount, hes not going to get chuck on his back before getting Ko'd.
mkiv9secsupra
6/9/09 12:57:02AM
Im not going to say Liddell is, without a doubt, top ten at this point, but the way everyone talks about him as such a washed up fighter after losing to Rampage, former light heavy weight champion, rashad evans, former light heavy weight champion, Mauricio Rua, 2005 PRIDE grand prix champion, and Keith Jardine, annual top contender, is a bit unfair to say the least. Hamill, Franklin, Thiago, and Cane i believe would all fall victim to the same fate as Liddell. Only time will tell and i hope to see Liddell one more time vs Franklin or Forrest for his last fight........flame on
deezyo
6/9/09 5:55:35PM
shogun will win
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