I'm posting it... RASHAD EVANS

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Jackelope
8/14/07 3:30:34PM
I'm just not that impressed. I know, I know, most people think he is the up and coming bad ass, but here are a few things I don't like about him-

I haven't seen every single one of his fights but I have seen the majority of them. The one thing I always see is that he seems tentative. He never really pushes the action unless the action is pushed on him. When somebody finally does push him and gets a few good shots on him, he seems to have an extremely tough chin. I'll give him that. I don't mind watching a counter puncher and I know how dangerous a counter puncher can be, but I don't view Rashad as a counter puncher. More as a "reactionary fighter" who lets his opponent control the Octagon. He's always got that reaching and probing hand that I can't wait to see someone throw an overhand right against resulting in Evans getting KTFO.

Wrestling- The guy has great wrestling that he just never really seems to put to use. Once in a while you'll see him do something in the form of a takedown that will blow your mind, and then it's like he doesn't want to be on the ground. I still haven't quite figured out why the guy doesn't like to stay on the ground. Has anyone else noticed this? From his credentials (I think he was Michigan State) and the takedowns I have seen you'd assume he'd be better off learning more about his ground game than trying to get all the fights to a standing position.

Personally, I find him boring to watch fight, tentative, and extremely lucky in some of the judges scorecards. Everyone knows Tito won 2 of the 3 rounds and if it weren't for the fence grab we would have seen Rashad go to 10-1-0. I think the only win he has that shows he's got potential is against Jason Lambert. Until he shows more he's nowhere near my top 10 and it'll frustrate me all the more when I see people ranking him there. Plus, I think he's stagnating his career by fighting Ortiz again and not moving up to tougher competition.
LR
8/14/07 3:42:36PM
Well, I haven't been impressed at all. The cans he fought, he beat badly, but they were just that, cans. They weren't up to his caliber. Fact is, Rashad never pushes the pace, and he is a horribly boring fighter at times. He bobs and weaves but never throws heavy shots. He hasn't been using his wrestling as effectively in his recent fights, and against Tito, he didn't do anything really. He had one good takedown the entire fight. He still lost the match overall and got lucky with the point deduction knocking Tito out of winning that fight. I seriously won't pick him to win against Tito, no matter how much people think Tito is done.
Jackelope
8/14/07 3:55:54PM
Well at least I'm not alone in t his thinking process, then..
AchillesHeel
8/14/07 4:03:42PM
Well, I happen to like Evans, although I don't really disagree with what you wrote.

He is a little tentative, yes. I think he's just unaccustomed to hitting people. His wins over Lambert and Salmon were impressive, though, and showed that he's improving. I noticed in his win over Lambert that he was kind of reluctant to keep hitting him from the mount, even though it was clear Lambert was in deep doo-doo, like he expected the ref to end it sooner than he did. And during the post-fight interview, he seemed concerned that he'd hurt Salmon, who was still on his back asking if anyone got the license plate on the truck that hit him.

As you point out, Evans doesn't go for takedowns much. He seems to be molding himself into a "sprawl & brawl" fighter, which I don't see anything wrong with (other than the hesitancy in his striking, which I imagine he'll overcome with training and experience).

I agree that Tito had that fight won. However, Rashad clearly had gained some confidence and took the 3rd round away from Tito. I wouldn't be shocked to see him come into their rematch with a tiger in his tank.

I thought about putting him in my Top 10, but decided not to. He's probably Top 15, and almost certainly Top 20. That's nothing to sneeze at, though. I think he'd be an instant title-contender in the WEC or IFL.

In the UFC, he's a ways away from being among the elite. Right now, Liddell, Shogun, Rampage, and Henderson would murder him. But again, that's nothing to be ashamed of. After his rematch with Ortiz - win or lose - I'd like to see him take on another "2nd Tier" opponent, somebody like Forrest Griffin, Keith Jardine, or Renato Sobral.
Jackelope
8/14/07 4:14:19PM
I'm thinking right now Babalu is his best match up. Babalu is usually an all or nothing fighter who doesn't mind pushing the action. I'd need to see something like that to test Rashad's skillset. Unfortunately Lambert beat Babalu so I'm not sure that match is feasible. I'd also like to see a great BJJ fighter roll on the ground with Rashad.

I wonder about Evans' camp choice, though. I think you're right saying that he's going for the sprawl and brawl, but I'm not sure that's what is best suited for his style. He's got the tough chin, but before I would consider him to be top contention LHW sprawl and brawler he'd have to develop some serious power in his hands. I mean just look at all the top LHW sprawl and brawl guys- their power is light years beyond his. Quinton Jackson and Chuck Liddell both have the power to knock somebody clean out with a grazing fist. I don't see Rashad having that power. And again, just like you said... he does seem like he's too much of a nice guy. I think he lacks the killer instinct.

I think he'd be much better off if he was in a camp more like Militech. Obviously that won't happen considering the people involved, but I really do think he'd be better off in a camp such as that. Somebody who could put his wrestling background to better use.
Jackelope
8/14/07 4:15:57PM
Oh yeah, and btw.. aren't Jardine and Evans in the same fight camp?
DJDark41
8/14/07 4:18:43PM
I hate Rashad Evans, he's very overrated in my eyes, and I hope in his next fight with Tito he gets put in his place. I was hoping Tito would do it the first time but no...whatever. I hope Rashad loses and finally learns that he isn't the best fighter and he will get his ass kicked sooner or later.
AchillesHeel
8/14/07 4:21:59PM

Posted by Jackelope

I think he'd be much better off if he was in a camp more like Militech. Obviously that won't happen considering the people involved[...]


Heh. Yeah, hard to imagine Evans and Matt Hughes training together.


Posted by Jackelope

Oh yeah, and btw.. aren't Jardine and Evans in the same fight camp?


They are, yes.


Posted by DJDark41

I hate Rashad Evans, he's very overrated in my eyes, and I hope in his next fight with Tito he gets put in his place. I was hoping Tito would do it the first time but no...whatever. I hope Rashad loses and finally learns that he isn't the best fighter and he will get his ass kicked sooner or later.


My guess is you'll have to wait a little while longer. Even if Tito wins, it won't be a butt-whoopin', and I'm actually leaning toward Rashad to win the rematch.
Jackelope
8/14/07 4:27:00PM

Posted by AchillesHeel


Posted by Jackelope

I think he'd be much better off if he was in a camp more like Militech. Obviously that won't happen considering the people involved[...]


Heh. Yeah, hard to imagine Evans and Matt Hughes training together.


Posted by Jackelope

Oh yeah, and btw.. aren't Jardine and Evans in the same fight camp?


They are, yes.


Posted by DJDark41

I hate Rashad Evans, he's very overrated in my eyes, and I hope in his next fight with Tito he gets put in his place. I was hoping Tito would do it the first time but no...whatever. I hope Rashad loses and finally learns that he isn't the best fighter and he will get his ass kicked sooner or later.


My guess is you'll have to wait a little while longer. Even if Tito wins, it won't be a butt-whoopin', and I'm actually leaning toward Rashad to win the rematch.



I still think he could stand to learn a few things from Matt, though I did like the way Hughes punked him out for showboating on TUF. Although Hughes is just as guilty of being a cocky prick in the Octagon sometimes.

I've got a good feeling Rashad will win the rematch, as well. He won't be afraid this time going in. Hopefully if he wins the rematch UFC will put him up against someone like Chuck Liddell or Rampage and he'll learn all about scary knock out power.

cowcatcher
8/14/07 4:35:48PM
hes just really green still and the tentativeness is a product of that. im not a fan of his, but i see the potential in him. i like him to beat tito, i picked tito last time but something seemed to click with rashad in the 3rd round of their first fight. not to mention titos cardio looked awful, im definately not a tito fan but he didnt look himself in there, ive never seen him gas so badly without taking any real punishment. i think the years of fighting, and the bad back may have caught up with the bad boy.
nubby
8/14/07 5:11:00PM

Posted by cowcatcher

hes just really green still and the tentativeness is a product of that. im not a fan of his, but i see the potential in him. i like him to beat tito, i picked tito last time but something seemed to click with rashad in the 3rd round of their first fight. not to mention titos cardio looked awful, im definately not a tito fan but he didnt look himself in there, ive never seen him gas so badly without taking any real punishment. i think the years of fighting, and the bad back may have caught up with the bad boy.



It was a back injury not cardio that caused him to lose round 3. If Tito stays healthy Rashad is going to be in for a 3 round ass kicking.
cowcatcher
8/14/07 5:17:40PM
how did i know youd say that
Pitbull09
8/14/07 5:21:48PM
Hes a good fighter, but not at the level their taking him too. He lost that fight to tito pretty much and even after, it seemed like he thought he won. I mean for how lame of a fight he put up, he had no right to get mad at that tie as it saved his ass from a loss. I think if he doesnt change from what you said, being a "reactionary fighter", he not going to win with tito since when he makes his actions, its precise and wont give him the chance to react in time/
nubby
8/14/07 5:45:40PM

Posted by cowcatcher

how did i know youd say that



Because I'm a self professed Tito nuthugger.
NatedawgThaM
8/14/07 5:48:29PM
Rashad is overrated, He'll lose the Unanimous Decision to Tito because I think Tito will impose his will and learn from his mistakes and dominate him. Rashad's wrestling is excellent but he only uses it to lay and prey. Great slams but no G&P. I see him being a decent threat but will never hold the title in the Rampage-Shogun era....
Mastodon2
8/14/07 6:41:49PM
Rashad might be overrated, I dont think he is the "next big thing", but give the guy a chance, he has time yet to get into his swing.

I was really impressed with him against Tito though, I know Tito is at best a B- fighter, maybe C+, but it was a step up for Rashad, and and even though Tito is huge compared to Evan's I thought he did a good job of neutralising Tito. Next time Rashad will come back even stronger, if there is anything that is true about him is that he comes back stronger every time. He won't be as tenative next time, he will pound Tito out. However, I dont see Rashad ever being able to hang with Shogun, Rampage or Wanderlei.

I think Rampage vs Nakamura would be a great grappling match though, I'd still pick Nakamura to win since his Judo is awesome (perhaps better than Karo's! His Trainer (Hidehiko Yoshida) has much better judo than Karo too) so I think he would sub Rashad, but it would still be a great fight!
nubby
8/14/07 8:02:40PM

Posted by Mastodon2

Rashad might be overrated, I dont think he is the "next big thing", but give the guy a chance, he has time yet to get into his swing.

I was really impressed with him against Tito though, I know Tito is at best a B- fighter, maybe C+, but it was a step up for Rashad, and and even though Tito is huge compared to Evan's I thought he did a good job of neutralising Tito. Next time Rashad will come back even stronger, if there is anything that is true about him is that he comes back stronger every time. He won't be as tenative next time, he will pound Tito out. However, I dont see Rashad ever being able to hang with Shogun, Rampage or Wanderlei.

I think Rampage vs Nakamura would be a great grappling match though, I'd still pick Nakamura to win since his Judo is awesome (perhaps better than Karo's! His Trainer (Hidehiko Yoshida) has much better judo than Karo too) so I think he would sub Rashad, but it would still be a great fight!



Tito a C+ fighter? Arg. Propaganda at its finest.
LR
8/14/07 8:56:53PM
To be honest, Rashad could be pretty damn good if he was more aggressive. I can see why he's cautious, I mean, he's riding a great record, but he needs to step it up to a whole new level.
fullerene
8/14/07 9:21:45PM
Many fighters who you see for the first time in the UFC have as many fights as Rashad has now. He had 5 pro fights and the best tMMA raining that East Lansing, MI could provide (which isn't much) when he was thrown on national TV fighting more experienced guys. Even Dana White admits he wasn't expected to win, especially as a HW. But he beat teh favorite (Mike Whitehead), a fringe contender in the current 205 pound class (Keith Jardine) and a guy who could easily fight at super HW (Brad Imes). Sure an inexperienced wrestler didn't dominate those fights, but if he wasn't talented he would have been dominated himself.

In most cases a guy like Rashad would have been handed a couple of convincing losses already and he'd be fighting on the undercards or building his resume up at WEC or KOTC. The only thing is he keeps winning. That doesn't mean he's experienced in MMA fights or that he's spent a lot of time in top notch training camps. He hasn't. Makes me think that in a couple of years--when he does have the experience and training that most of the guys he's fighting have--he's going to be pretty damn good.
Lay_N_Pray
8/15/07 1:59:31AM
Fullerene is exactly right. Evans isnt nearley as expierenced as most of his competition and he is still learning so much about MMA and is picking up quickly. Much like Kos, he came in as a straight wrestler, but his striking is improving slowly and im sure he will be adding subs in his game pretty soon.

As for the rematch with Tito I think he will win. It might end up being a boring fight, but Titos strength which is wrestling is also Evans strength and in my opinion Evans is a better wrestler when he is aggresive. So Evans could easily lay out a decision.

I think a year from now we could be talking about Evans as a title contender
Jackelope
8/15/07 2:09:34AM
I'm not going to say definitely "NO" but unless something serious happens in his personal life to wake up the demon within I really don't see him being title contender in a year's time. And come on, guys.. do you really lend that much credit to his competition?

The only two fighters he's fought that really had mass experience over him are Ortiz and Lambert
fullerene
8/15/07 8:20:14AM

Posted by Jackelope

I'm not going to say definitely "NO" but unless something serious happens in his personal life to wake up the demon within I really don't see him being title contender in a year's time. And come on, guys.. do you really lend that much credit to his competition?

The only two fighters he's fought that really had mass experience over him are Ortiz and Lambert


Other guys who had much more experience than him included Brayn Pardoe (14 pro fights some against champion-level opponents to Evans' 2 pro fights), Mike Whitehead (12 pro fights to Evans' 5 when they entered TUF, trained with Militech Fighting Systems, had fought the likes of Tim Sylvia and Ben Rothwell) and Keith Jardine (10 pro fights before TUF, trained with Greg Jackson, had beaten UFC fighters Travis Wiuff and George Allen)
kaduey
8/15/07 10:12:47AM

Posted by Mastodon2

Rashad might be overrated, I dont think he is the "next big thing", but give the guy a chance, he has time yet to get into his swing.

I was really impressed with him against Tito though, I know Tito is at best a B- fighter, maybe C+, but it was a step up for Rashad, and and even though Tito is huge compared to Evan's I thought he did a good job of neutralising Tito. Next time Rashad will come back even stronger, if there is anything that is true about him is that he comes back stronger every time. He won't be as tenative next time, he will pound Tito out. However, I dont see Rashad ever being able to hang with Shogun, Rampage or Wanderlei.

I think Rampage vs Nakamura would be a great grappling match though, I'd still pick Nakamura to win since his Judo is awesome (perhaps better than Karo's! His Trainer (Hidehiko Yoshida) has much better judo than Karo too) so I think he would sub Rashad, but it would still be a great fight!



OK buddy, Tito's a B/C class fighter. Look at the guys he's fought.
I'm not surprised that you make such bold statements about Ortiz, you also think Nakamura and Rampage would be a great grappling match and Nakamura would win.
DCRage
8/15/07 10:15:52AM
He's still an up-and-coming fighter. It wasn't until the Salmon fight that he really showed off any sort of KO power with his strikes (namely the high right head kick that knocked Salmon into next week), and even with that his standup game needs a bit more work. The ground game is fine, but if he can't take the fight to the ground then it's useless. I sometimes wonder what would be or have been if he had stayed at or were to jump back up to Heavyweight like he was on TUF2.
Mastodon2
8/15/07 11:22:32AM

Posted by kaduey



OK buddy, Tito's a B/C class fighter. Look at the guys he's fought.
I'm not surprised that you make such bold statements about Ortiz, you also think Nakamura and Rampage would be a great grappling match and Nakamura would win.



Yeah and look at who he has actually beaten. Espescially lately, squeaking out a victory over Griffin, TKOing Ken twice and drawing with Rashad, he hardly stands on the level of Fighters like Chuck, Shogun and Rampage.

And yes, Nakamura's submission skills > Rampage's defence. Rampage would have to finish it on the feet, and Nakamura is quite good at clinching and getting a takedown out of nowhere, Judo is good for that.
fullerene
8/15/07 11:47:29AM

Posted by Mastodon2

[Yeah and look at who he has actually beaten. Espescially lately, squeaking out a victory over Griffin, TKOing Ken twice and drawing with Rashad, he hardly stands on the level of Fighters like Chuck, Shogun and Rampage.
.


Being below Chuck, Shogun and Rampage doesn't bump you down to a C-level fighter. Look who he's lost to in the last 7 years--Liddell and Couture. That's it. Might mean he's not an A-level fighter, but I think he's a B+ at least. And if you want to stretch it back a few years he's knocked off guys like Matyushenko, Belfort, Kondo and Silva--all of whom were better than B level fighters themselves.



Posted by Mastodon2

And yes, Nakamura's submission skills > Rampage's defence. Rampage would have to finish it on the feet, and Nakamura is quite good at clinching and getting a takedown out of nowhere, Judo is good for that.


Competitive matchup IMO. Nakamura is tough, which is something most UFC fans don't realize. But Rampage held his own wrestling with Lindland and Arona so I don't think it's a given that he gets thrown around. And Nakamura can be KOd which is something Rampage will test.
Jackelope
8/15/07 2:46:50PM

Posted by fullerene


Posted by Jackelope

I'm not going to say definitely "NO" but unless something serious happens in his personal life to wake up the demon within I really don't see him being title contender in a year's time. And come on, guys.. do you really lend that much credit to his competition?

The only two fighters he's fought that really had mass experience over him are Ortiz and Lambert


Other guys who had much more experience than him included Brayn Pardoe (14 pro fights some against champion-level opponents to Evans' 2 pro fights), Mike Whitehead (12 pro fights to Evans' 5 when they entered TUF, trained with Militech Fighting Systems, had fought the likes of Tim Sylvia and Ben Rothwell) and Keith Jardine (10 pro fights before TUF, trained with Greg Jackson, had beaten UFC fighters Travis Wiuff and George Allen)



I know all the guys' records and I'm still not impressed. I wouldn't have posted what I did without looking back on a who's who of the guys he's fought. We all saw the kind of person Mike Whitehead was on TUF anyway, so that's a moot point bringing him up. He was a nuthugger for Hughes and a wanna be tough guy in practice who obviously couldn't translate it to the octagon. Not that I want to start a flame war about the guy but hey, were you impressed in that fight?

The thing I'm saying is that he's squeaked by in all of his fights except for the obvious KO on Salmon and the victory that even I admitted was impressive over Lambert. Looking back now I can see how my words were misconstrued and I apologize for not wording correctly - - - but - - - the fact remains that I'm not that impressed with his career up to this point, and I think any fighter who dances around the Octagon and stalls for 70% of his fight is not top level competition and unless something changes never will be. Just watch his last fight against Ortiz and tell me that's not the case. He never pushes the action unless the action is pushed on him or unless it's really late in a fight. Therefore- squeaking by opponents.

On another note I will again mention the fact that any of these guys would whoop my ass and I'm no UFC fighter, I'm merely stating an opinion. One that is highly agreed with it looks like by almost every other person besides you. So it's not an opinion flying out of some dark shit filled corner.

But please.. post on.. I respect your opinion
kaduey
8/15/07 2:56:48PM

Posted by Mastodon2


Posted by kaduey



OK buddy, Tito's a B/C class fighter. Look at the guys he's fought.
I'm not surprised that you make such bold statements about Ortiz, you also think Nakamura and Rampage would be a great grappling match and Nakamura would win.



Yeah and look at who he has actually beaten. Espescially lately, squeaking out a victory over Griffin, TKOing Ken twice and drawing with Rashad, he hardly stands on the level of Fighters like Chuck, Shogun and Rampage.

And yes, Nakamura's submission skills > Rampage's defence. Rampage would have to finish it on the feet, and Nakamura is quite good at clinching and getting a takedown out of nowhere, Judo is good for that.



I still don't understand how you can classify Rampage vs. Nakamura as a good grappling match or even a grappling match for that matter.

Look who Tito has beat. Guy Mezger, Wanderlei Silva, Yukin Kondo, Evan Tanner, Vladimir Matyushenko, Vitor Belfort. I don't know about you but I think that resume constitutes as being an A class fighter.
Jackelope
8/15/07 3:04:03PM
Oh, and about Tito-

Formerly A class fighter now a B class fighter. If he was still an A class fighter people would see a title contention in his future and he also wouldn't have a problem knocking off the likes of Rashad Evans.

And let's face it- it's been said a number of times, but Ken Shamrock is no Frank Shamrock

cowcatcher
8/15/07 3:16:17PM

Posted by Jackelope

Oh, and about Tito-

Formerly A class fighter now a B class fighter. If he was still an A class fighter people would see a title contention in his future and he also wouldn't have a problem knocking off the likes of Rashad Evans.

And let's face it- it's been said a number of times, but Ken Shamrock is no Frank Shamrock




i think a more accurate statement would be ken shamrock is not the ken shamrock of old, mostly because i think frank has always been the more talented of the two, hell he was the #1 p4p in the world at one time IMO, and im not sure that ken was(although it could be argued, right richie?)
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