I'm dissipointed to see this site's LHW rankings. Why are Forrest & Chuck above Jardine?

MMAPlayground.com » MMA General » General MMA Talk » I'm dissipointed to see this site's LHW rankings. Why are Forrest & Chuck above Jardine?
A_Real_MMA_Fan
2/22/08 12:41:58AM
What would make someone think that Forrest & Liddell should be above Jardine in rankings???

Sherdog.com's rankings seem to make the most sense because they have Jardine ranked higher than Forrest & Chuck because Jardine dominated both of them RECENTLY

So, to anyone who ranks Forrest & Chuck higher than Jardine:: Why do you do it???


---
Pookie
2/22/08 12:48:55AM
i personaly don't...

but the common responses you'll get are that

1) Forrest is the #1 contender, and that matters.

2) Jardine lost to Alexander.

...

The not so common and IMO the only reason you could rank them ahead of jardine

3) Stylistically he doesnt match-up well with the rest of the LHW division. Shogun, wanderlei, machida, henderson, sokoudjou, and rampage should beat him, as they have the right styles to do so.


But yeah i don't have Forrest or Liddell in front of Jardine
rameydl8
2/22/08 12:49:26AM
i dont have my rankings set yet.......but im guessing its b/c

chuck beat wanderlei
forrest beat shogun

and wanderlei and shogun both would absolutely destroy jardine.....
Pookie
2/22/08 12:51:17AM

Posted by rameydl8

i dont have my rankings set yet.......but im guessing its b/c

chuck beat wanderlei
forrest beat shogun

and wanderlei and shogun both would absolutely destroy jardine.....



the reverse to this is that Rampage beat chuck(2ce) and wanderlei Ko'd Rampage (2ce).

MMamath isnt a good thing to base your rankings off of.
jiujitsufreak74
2/22/08 12:51:34AM
well this site's rankings is a combination of everyone's rankings and formulated as one. if you have a problem with it yell at all of the members on this site...not the mods. it's a collection based ranking so it is the members on this site collectively that influence the ranking. and for the record, rankings are totally an opinion matter. there really can't be too much logical thought put into them that cannot be refuted. there are countless arguments over this topic and most of us here have agreed to disagree and moved on.
cmill21
2/22/08 12:56:22AM

Posted by jiujitsufreak74

well this site's rankings is a combination of everyone's rankings and formulated as one. if you have a problem with it yell at all of the members on this site...not the mods. it's a collection based ranking so it is the members on this site collectively that influence the ranking. and for the record, rankings are totally an opinion matter. there really can't be too much logical thought put into them that cannot be refuted. there are countless arguments over this topic and most of us here have agreed to disagree and moved on.



See while I think thats a good thing, but then again I think it's dumb. I don't like the way some people rank and they don't like how I rank, I don't believe one win vaults you in front of someone who's done it over and over again while other feel differently. Rankings are subjective and IMHO they should be taken as fun, mma is to unpredictable to base title shots and that off of like people want the UFC to do.
rameydl8
2/22/08 1:00:19AM

Posted by Pookie


Posted by rameydl8

i dont have my rankings set yet.......but im guessing its b/c

chuck beat wanderlei
forrest beat shogun

and wanderlei and shogun both would absolutely destroy jardine.....



the reverse to this is that Rampage beat chuck(2ce) and wanderlei Ko'd Rampage (2ce).

MMamath isnt a good thing to base your rankings off of.



no offence but i will base them off anything i want to......
thats why there my rankings not yours

p.s.-not trying to be a dick....just stating how i feel..
hippysmacker
2/22/08 1:15:06AM

Posted by rameydl8


Posted by Pookie


Posted by rameydl8

i dont have my rankings set yet.......but im guessing its b/c

chuck beat wanderlei
forrest beat shogun

and wanderlei and shogun both would absolutely destroy jardine.....



the reverse to this is that Rampage beat chuck(2ce) and wanderlei Ko'd Rampage (2ce).

MMamath isnt a good thing to base your rankings off of.



no offence but i will base them off anything i want to......
thats why there my rankings not yours

p.s.-not trying to be a dick....just stating how i feel..





Exactly. All rankings are subjective. Also, all rankings discussions go in the mma lounge.
NatedawgThaM
2/22/08 1:33:48AM
Favoritism. I willing to bet at the least 80% of UFC fans favorite fighter is Chuck Liddell. Forrest is also more popular the Jardine. It's kinda a popularity contest.

I definitely don't. Chuck was out of my top 10 until he beat Wandy and then I ranked him 6th or 7th just because that wasn't that big of a win unless you count LHW champ legacy vs legacy. But current status wise, if it wasn't for there past success, that fight would have been a prelim to stay in the UFC.

Jardine KO'd Forrest, as simple as that and both are 2-1 in there last 3. So Jardine almost has to get the nod.
fightdavejordan
2/22/08 6:29:08AM
well as fare as this gos chuck whopped silva ass and forrest beat the best at that time from pride and jardine is a total bitch and when he beat chuck it was notlike he beat hte piss out of him he barly won and i would put my money on chuck if him and jardine fight agin
Pookie
2/22/08 6:33:58AM

Posted by fightdavejordan

well as fare as this gos chuck whopped silva ass and forrest beat the best at that time from pride and jardine is a total bitch and when he beat chuck it was notlike he beat hte piss out of him he barly won and i would put my money on chuck if him and jardine fight agin



Jardine is a total bitch?

hmmm.... if thats not blatant fighter bashing i dont know what is
stock
2/22/08 9:29:36AM

Posted by rameydl8

i dont have my rankings set yet.......but im guessing its b/c

chuck beat wanderlei
forrest beat shogun

and wanderlei and shogun both would absolutely destroy jardine.....



That's funny.
Jardine beat both Chuck and Forrest.
We don't know about Wanderlei and Shogun.

Anyway, to A_REAL_MMA_FAN,
Don't blame me. I have Jardine-3, Forrest-4, and Chuck-5.
It's also my opinion that Jardine should be the one fighting Rampage next.

Anyway, rankings don't really matter anyway since the UFC (or any organization for that matter) uses them. I pay very little attention to other rankings, and pay very much attention to my own rankings.
That may sound a little pompus, but I just believe what I believe.
gsquat
2/22/08 11:50:43AM

Posted by fightdavejordan

fare.. gos... notlike... hte... barly... agin



I'm sorry but with words like these your opinions lose all legitimacy.
pv3Hpv3p
2/22/08 12:57:52PM
When you look at the rankings on this site especially... They are going to be more biased as to where certain fighters land in the rankings... There are a lot of big Chuck and Forrest fans, not so many die-hard Dean of Mean lovers...

IMO, the ranking on this site are good for a general top 10... But as to the actuall ranked position of those 10 fighters is basically a crap shoot
mrliquid
2/22/08 1:24:48PM
I think they rank fighters on overall status not just 1 fight they probably ranked Forrest and Chuck over Jardine do to there past fights aswell and performances just because jardine beat chuck doesnt mean he is overall a better fighter.
Kpro
2/22/08 1:28:56PM
Jardine beat Chuck & Forrest.
Chuck beat Wandy.
Forrest beat Shogun.
Jardine lost to Houston Alexander.


All 3 have high profile wins.
Jardine's loss was to an unproven opponent, whereas Chuck/Forrest's were not.

I understand the H2H reasoning for Jardine above, and I also have Jardine above; but the fact remains, he's the one with the loss to a non-top-10 fighter.
Ordep
2/22/08 2:56:24PM
The only rankings that makes sense to me is the "Fan Favorites" ones..... the actual divisional rankings need to take a lot of things into consideration and a lot of people dont do that, they just go through favoritism, nutthugging and mmamath..... so final point rank #1 the champ for each division for each organization... example GSP #1 WW in UFC but Condit #1 WW on WEC .... personally I can't say that GSP>Condit because ___IMO___ the only way to say this fighter is better than this is an actual match between them, #2,3,4 is hard to say. That's just for me and talking about "current" rankings. All-time rankings is a complete different story.
stock
2/22/08 4:55:06PM

Posted by pv3Hpv3p

When you look at the rankings on this site especially... They are going to be more biased as to where certain fighters land in the rankings... There are a lot of big Chuck and Forrest fans, not so many die-hard Dean of Mean lovers...

IMO, the ranking on this site are good for a general top 10... But as to the actuall ranked position of those 10 fighters is basically a crap shoot



Agree completely.
This is exactly why it is fairly common for college football teams to be ranked 1 point above a team they have lost to.

It would be interesting to rank fighter's median scores rather than their averages (just use averages to break ties).
By using medians, you would be giving less weight to people that rank a fighter very high or very low relative to the pack.

If I could get my hands on the raw data set, I would be willing to compile this myself, and then compare/contrast.

Mod???
ThaAxeMurderer7
2/22/08 5:17:19PM

Posted by Ordep

The only rankings that makes sense to me is the "Fan Favorites" ones..... the actual divisional rankings need to take a lot of things into consideration and a lot of people dont do that, they just go through favoritism, nutthugging and mmamath..... so final point rank #1 the champ for each division for each organization... example GSP #1 WW in UFC but Condit #1 WW on WEC .... personally I can't say that GSP>Condit because ___IMO___ the only way to say this fighter is better than this is an actual match between them, #2,3,4 is hard to say. That's just for me and talking about "current" rankings. All-time rankings is a complete different story.



I dont mean to pick but GSP isnt the WW champ. I agree he is the #1 WW but he isnt the champ....yet.
Ordep
2/22/08 6:30:47PM

Posted by ThaAxeMurderer7


Posted by Ordep

The only rankings that makes sense to me is the "Fan Favorites" ones..... the actual divisional rankings need to take a lot of things into consideration and a lot of people dont do that, they just go through favoritism, nutthugging and mmamath..... so final point rank #1 the champ for each division for each organization... example GSP #1 WW in UFC but Condit #1 WW on WEC .... personally I can't say that GSP>Condit because ___IMO___ the only way to say this fighter is better than this is an actual match between them, #2,3,4 is hard to say. That's just for me and talking about "current" rankings. All-time rankings is a complete different story.



I dont mean to pick but GSP isnt the WW champ. I agree he is the #1 WW but he isnt the champ....yet.



yah I know, but he's the Interim one, for me that mean the "actual" one same as Nog
hippysmacker
2/22/08 10:10:01PM

Posted by NatedawgThaM

Favoritism. I willing to bet at the least 80% of UFC fans favorite fighter is Chuck Liddell. Forrest is also more popular the Jardine. It's kinda a popularity contest.

I definitely don't. Chuck was out of my top 10 until he beat Wandy and then I ranked him 6th or 7th just because that wasn't that big of a win unless you count LHW champ legacy vs legacy. But current status wise, if it wasn't for there past success, that fight would have been a prelim to stay in the UFC.

Jardine KO'd Forrest, as simple as that and both are 2-1 in there last 3. So Jardine almost has to get the nod.



Well you would seem to be wrong, as Chuck is voted the # 7 fan favorite on the sites rankings, and it's mathematically impossible that would make him anywhere near even vote counted 20% of the members favorite fighter. That doesn't mean a fair amount of people don't like him., but it seems that this is another case of hyperbole, or a serious miscalculation. It could also be that you don'y know how the sites rankings are calculated. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just didn't think it all the way through, as you could have just looked the favorite rankings up on this site. To me Chuck is like Tyson was back in the day to the casual fan. They've seen a few highlights on promos, maybe a fight or 2, and they have heard enough stories to make him into a larger than life figure. We all know you don't like Chuck, you have posted about it repeatedly. The thing about me is I, why I have always loved to watch Chuck and Wandy fight, as they are both exciting warriors in my book, I have usually rooted against both till they started losing. I guess I just feel bad to see a legend fall, but back when Randy and Rampage were my favorite fighters, these guys kept ruining my day. So while sometimes they showed attitudes I felt were less than classy, I still felt they overwhelmingly deserved my respect. The symptom I have seen from a lot of diehards is they resent the casual fans lack of knowledge. When they hear them going on about Chuck Liddell as if he is invincible, it irks them and turns them against him. I always thought Holyfeild and Bowe would beat Tyson, even before he started free-falling,but when most casual fans heard that they would flip out. You would get the occasional reasonable casual guy who could understand your argument. Sometimes you would hear a casual fan parrot your argument to others later, as if it was their argument, in order to make themselves feel superior in boxing knowledge. Either way it made a lot of boxing diehards pay for Tyson's downfall. There is no way to actually prove it , but I have never met a diehard boxing fan who thought Tyson was better than Ali, Holmes, Louis, Marciano etc. Yet random casual fans declared him the best ever, without even knowing who the other contenders to that title were. I personally thought Chuck was the #1 LHVY before the 2nd loss to Rampage, and that Rampage was ruined mentally. I was obviously wrong, but even though I had picked Chuck to win the fight , casual fans were making me wish he would lose. I would hear random people talking MMA , and join into the conversation, only to find out that most hadn't even seen the first fight. So they were basing their assumptions on limited and faulty information. Anyone who knows me knows how much I dislike people making declarations of certainty that aren't certain, and can't stand it even more when they aren't even qualified to make the declaration. So becuase a lot of casual guys wanted to feel knowledgeable and right, I ended up resenting Chuck/Randy/Diego and GSP for a little bit. There just seemed to be a lot of uneducated MMA fans making bold declarations about these 4 being invincible. I was a huge fan of Randy and GSP , but could always see many possible scenarios in which they could be beat.Some of my friends even resented the UFC ,as they felt the UFC wasn't fooling them . Thats when I realized how ridiculous this was. I was resenting a company for promoting it''s fighters and brand? Thats what they are supposed to do! I am not insecure enough to feel the need to prove to everyone that I'm not fooled, but it seemed some of my friends were. They were generally my early 20's friends, so that made more sense. I probably would have still been all riled up just like them at that age. Anyway, I think that kind of backlash has hurt Chuck with the diehard fans, and I also think the casual fans aren't really Chuck fans, so much as they are attracted to the feeling of seeming knowledgeable. Those type of people generally don't spend a lot of time on these sites. You will see some float in when they are new to it, and some will drift away when something else is the cool new thing for them. Others will stick , grow in knowledge , and become diehards. The way the sites rankings are calculated is this. The better your record over a long time, the more your personal rankings count toward the sites overall totals., If some new guy joins the site and is 10-6 on 2 cards, he is barely even a mathematical blip in the overall equation. It's also the reason I often try to get long term members to actually keep their rankings current. Overtime most people who are knowledgeable will have picks that even out over time, They will generally pick well enough for their personal rankings to make a difference. So no matter what the sites rankings, and if some of us disagree with them, they are they overall collective wisdom of the long term MMA die hard members of this site.
Pookie
2/22/08 11:00:26PM
Really great post

You're tidbit on the rankings reminded me that the day after rampage beat liddell i had bj penn in front of Rampage on the P4P rankings, but if i switched the two rampage would move in front of bj on the sites p4p rankings(because the % difference between the 2 were so small).
I felt immense power! ... Just a cool little anecdote. totally irrelevant but just thought that i should share that.
bls1919
2/22/08 11:27:05PM
This is all because Jardine's chin is in ? ever since the Houston Alexander fight. Really do u put a guy who might be in the top ten in title contention when he gets OWNED standing by a relative new comer!?!?!?! i dont. If he wins his next fight. And that is a big IF? then he does get a shot at #1 contender after the Chuck/Shogun fight
bls1919
2/22/08 11:31:20PM
Holy Shit hippysmacker just read ur post...?...?........?that might have been the most indepth interworking of somones mind i've ever seen on a blog
hippysmacker
2/23/08 5:44:33AM
Thx for the props yall, and pookie I also admit I look at the rankings percentages before I update my rankings, just to see the outcome
Pressure
2/23/08 10:16:55AM
I would put Liddell ahead of Forrest Griffin, but theres no way you can put Chuck ahead of Jardine!!
Taylor8766
2/23/08 10:18:46AM
IMO Forrest is rated higher than Jardine even thoug he lost to Jardine, is because he beat the supposebly, #1 LHW in the world(shogun), while Jardine lost to an unknown fighter in Houston Alexander. When a fighter loses to an unknown, it hurts there rankings. However, Jardine did beat Chuck by decision. But Chuck beat the supposably #3 ranked LHW fighter(Wandy), and when Jardine and Chuck fought Chuck was ranked, I believe it was 6th behind Rampage, Shogun, Wanderlei, Hendo, Sokojou. While Jardine was ranked somewhere 8 or 9th. So going into that fight he beat a guy that was ranked only 2-3 spots ahead of him, which would have put him in 6th and chuck in 7th. But than chuck beat the 2nd ranked Wanderlei, because Shogun lost to Forrest, it definetly puts his rank from being a 7th ranked fighter to at least 5th if not higher, because of sokojou losing.
BlazinSaddle
2/26/08 8:33:24PM
i dont care if any of you agree but this is how i see the rankings (disregarding MOST competition faced)

Champ) rampage

1) Lyoto
2) Forrest (soon to be #5 after losing to rampage)
3) Thiago (soon to be #2 after beating rashad)
4) Chuck (soon to be #7 or 8 after losing to shogun)
5) Shogun (soon going to be #3 or 4)
6) Hendo
7) Jardine (soon to be #8 or 9 after losing to wandy)
8) Wandy (soon going to be #6 or 7)
9) Rashad
10) Houston
Pookie
2/26/08 8:43:15PM

Posted by BlazinSaddle

i dont care if any of you agree but this is how i see the rankings (disregarding MOST competition faced)

Champ) rampage

1) Lyoto
2) Forrest (soon to be #5 after losing to rampage)
3) Thiago (soon to be #2 after beating rashad)
4) Chuck (soon to be #7 or 8 after losing to shogun)
5) Shogun (soon going to be #3 or 4)
6) Hendo
7) Jardine (soon to be #8 or 9 after losing to wandy)
8) Wandy (soon going to be #6 or 7)
9) Rashad
10) Houston




ok so what exactly puts thiago silva in front of hendo shogun chuck and wandy?

where do Rameau Sokoudjou, Antonio Rogerio Nogueira, Ricardo Arona, and Tito Ortiz place?

What is youre rationale for houston alexander?
BlazinSaddle
2/26/08 9:20:56PM

Posted by Pookie


Posted by BlazinSaddle

i dont care if any of you agree but this is how i see the rankings (disregarding MOST competition faced)

Champ) rampage

1) Lyoto
2) Forrest (soon to be #5 after losing to rampage)
3) Thiago (soon to be #2 after beating rashad)
4) Chuck (soon to be #7 or 8 after losing to shogun)
5) Shogun (soon going to be #3 or 4)
6) Hendo
7) Jardine (soon to be #8 or 9 after losing to wandy)
8) Wandy (soon going to be #6 or 7)
9) Rashad
10) Houston




ok so what exactly puts thiago silva in front of hendo shogun chuck and wandy?

where do Rameau Sokoudjou, Antonio Rogerio Nogueira, Ricardo Arona, and Tito Ortiz place?

What is youre rationale for houston alexander?



maybe i shoulda put thiago lower but the guy is undefeated and i dont care what comp. hes faced, to me hes in front of hendo whos not in that division anymore, chuck who recently lost to jardine and needs to beat shogun and another fight IMO to get a shot at rampage who wooped on him twice, and wandy whos on a 3 fight losing steak who needs at least 3-5 wins to get a shot, thiago needs 1 or 2 to get a shot, its not like you have to take my list so literally its just an opinion

as far as soku he just lost, i suppose i could have replaced houston for lil nog and arona hasnt been fighting so who cares
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