M-1 fighter Toni Valtonen has a swastika tattoo

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XblacksheepX
9/2/09 8:54:26PM

Posted by papercut

"brown pride" is a gang that was recently showcased on the show "gangland" on the history channel. they are localized in nashville tennessee. just saying. off topic.



Oh, didn't know that. I was coming from a more common point of view. Do you know what this gang is about? i guess nothing good... Thanks for sharing.
XblacksheepX
9/2/09 9:03:29PM

Posted by mentalcase

i think any kind of Pride to do with one's skin colour or nationality is stupid, Pride is something that should only be gained though personal achievement not what colour you were born



In general, i would agree 100%!!! But if you take historical circumstances in concideration, a resistance movement like the black panthers for example is way more than that. It's more like building a certain self-confidence in between individuals of a group of discriminated people and put into position against the diffamation it experiences.
SmileR
9/2/09 9:26:52PM
Just throwing my 2 cents in really.

If the guy is truly sorry he should have the tattoo covered end of story. It's offensive to pretty much everybody who isn't racist so theirs no excuse to have it out. Black, White, Asian, Mexican, French, German, Man or Woman, its despised by the masses. If he was truly a family man as he stated he'd have that covered already. Children idolize their parents so having that on their fathers arm is setting a bad example right off the bat.

As for the white pride tattoo I'm with the more sensible posters on the site and think its a racist statement aimed at inciting hatred.
Its nothing like Cane's brown pride tattoo which is stating he's proud of his heritage.
If he was as proud of his heritage there are hundreds of different more appropriate tattoo's to have rather than a right wing chant that is used in almost every hate rally in the world.

M1 as a company should have addressed this before Valtonen was even allowed in the ring. This has over shadowed all the fights on the card and I think has done damage to their already fragile reputation with MMA fans.
Aether
9/2/09 9:33:51PM
well the comments about the origin of the swastika are not entirely relevant IMO. Unless you're just wondering, in which case I'm pretty sure that MANY cultures and religions have used swastikas whether the arms point in a different direction or it's tilted 45 degrees. It's pretty clear from the surrounding tattoos that he intended it as the Nazi symbol and not any of the others.

I don't really care about his tattoos personally, but I can understand if the company were to release him, as it can clearly impact their viewer base. The guy has said that he regrets getting them anyway, so I doubt he will have a problem with getting it altered or covered up somehow.

Frankly I think it takes a big man to say "yeah I screwed up and I'm not proud of it" who really knows what is or isn't sincere in people's public persona though.
Rush
9/2/09 10:12:22PM

Posted by Aether

well the comments about the origin of the swastika are not entirely relevant IMO. Unless you're just wondering, in which case I'm pretty sure that MANY cultures and religions have used swastikas whether the arms point in a different direction or it's tilted 45 degrees. It's pretty clear from the surrounding tattoos that he intended it as the Nazi symbol and not any of the others.




I don't think that anyone was discussing the origin of the swastika in a manner to justify the guys tattoo. I think it was for general discussion.

As for the Nazi version, I am sure that the 45 deg. tilt is reserved for the Nazi flag/band, whereas all other references to the symbol are sitting upright. The handedness of the symbol is universal in that both directions have been used.
XblacksheepX
9/2/09 10:16:36PM

Posted by XblacksheepX


Posted by papercut

"brown pride" is a gang that was recently showcased on the show "gangland" on the history channel. they are localized in nashville tennessee. just saying. off topic.



Oh, didn't know that. I was coming from a more common point of view. Do you know what this gang is about? i guess nothing good... Thanks for sharing.



OFF TOPIC, but:
I just did a little research and velasquez is from arizona, so it's kinda doubtful that he is or was part of that gang. he went to college and is a professional ahtlete, so there wouldn't be much time for thugging and gangbanging anyway.
it seems like this is just a "pride" thing, which is kinda stupid, cause you take pride from something you have done and accomplished, not from something you were accidentally given at birth.
postman
9/2/09 10:56:14PM

Posted by Aether

well the comments about the origin of the swastika are not entirely relevant IMO. Unless you're just wondering, in which case I'm pretty sure that MANY cultures and religions have used swastikas whether the arms point in a different direction or it's tilted 45 degrees. It's pretty clear from the surrounding tattoos that he intended it as the Nazi symbol and not any of the others.

I don't really care about his tattoos personally, but I can understand if the company were to release him, as it can clearly impact their viewer base. The guy has said that he regrets getting them anyway, so I doubt he will have a problem with getting it altered or covered up somehow.

Frankly I think it takes a big man to say "yeah I screwed up and I'm not proud of it" who really knows what is or isn't sincere in people's public persona though.



No way he gets them covered up now its to cover his ass! If these were pics of when he was 18 and now they were covered up then he gets the benifit of the doubt but to still carry that hate on your body and claim you don't belive it is nonsense.
Jackelope
9/2/09 10:59:43PM
A couple of people on this website know how seriously I take anything Nazi related. This is a dark, dark, dark part of human history. Possibly the darkest. As HUMANS we should all be ashamed of what happened then. I've seen the battlefields, concentration camps and graveyards in Europe, and I've lived amongst German folks who carry the shame of WW2. Anyone who subscribes to this philosophy isn't worthy of my time. If this fighter is truly sorry he needs to get it covered up. End of story.
jay98107
9/2/09 11:37:56PM
The same thing happened a couple years ago with KOTC fighter Melvin Costa, but I'm sure someone has already mentioned him. He had a swastika on his stomach if im not mistaken.
RMFG_187
9/3/09 1:38:24AM
is this guy even a good fighter?
RearNakedJoke
9/3/09 4:20:33AM
Brock lesnar has a penis on his chest. are we going to ban every fighter who gets a stupid tattoo? people have a right to be ignorant. we have the right to root for ignorant people to get knocked out.

Alan Belcher's John Goodman tattoo is still the worst in mma imo.



RearNakedJoke
9/3/09 4:21:29AM

Posted by RearNakedJoke

Brock lesnar has a penis on his chest. are we going to ban every fighter who gets a stupid tattoo? people have a right to be ignorant. we have the right to root for ignorant people to get knocked out.

Alan Belcher's John Goodman tattoo is still the worst in mma imo.






or maybe its Wayne Newton?
AchillesHeel
9/3/09 9:43:45AM

Brock lesnar has a penis on his chest. are we going to ban every fighter who gets a stupid tattoo?

You think Lesnar's tattoo is the same as a swastika?


people have a right to be ignorant.

No they don't.

slapshot
9/3/09 10:02:25AM

Posted by Aaronno9


Posted by postman

This may have been touched on he also has White Pride accross his back. He needs to wear a neoprean sleve on his arm to cover it IMO. His back not sure he can do anything about that.





Well, considering nobody even questions Cain Valasquez's brown pride tattoo im not sure its really fair to question a white pride tattoo either. Keeping in mind Cain is fighting on PPV cards infront on millions of people showing his tattoo.


Its become cool to hate white people that hate other people but I totally agree.

I get tired of the double standard, whites are blasted for being racist (as they should be) but anyone else can do and say what they want and not be called out.


Posted by XblacksheepX


Posted by mentalcase

i think any kind of Pride to do with one's skin colour or nationality is stupid, Pride is something that should only be gained though personal achievement not what colour you were born



In general, i would agree 100%!!! But if you take historical circumstances in concideration, a resistance movement like the black panthers for example is way more than that. It's more like building a certain self-confidence in between individuals of a group of discriminated people and put into position against the diffamation it experiences.


I guess we all need justifcations for our behavior but thats a weak one.


Posted by SmileR

Just throwing my 2 cents in really.

If the guy is truly sorry he should have the tattoo covered end of story. It's offensive to pretty much everybody who isn't racist so theirs no excuse to have it out. Black, White, Asian, Mexican, French, German, Man or Woman, its despised by the masses. If he was truly a family man as he stated he'd have that covered already. Children idolize their parents so having that on their fathers arm is setting a bad example right off the bat.

As for the white pride tattoo I'm with the more sensible posters on the site and think its a racist statement aimed at inciting hatred.
Its nothing like Cane's brown pride tattoo which is stating he's proud of his heritage.
If he was as proud of his heritage there are hundreds of different more appropriate tattoo's to have rather than a right wing chant that is used in almost every hate rally in the world.

M1 as a company should have addressed this before Valtonen was even allowed in the ring. This has over shadowed all the fights on the card and I think has done damage to their already fragile reputation with MMA fans.


As for the White, Brown and Black pride and what it means, ALL three logo's are a symbol of race and the believe that you need to stand up for that race and all three are racist, I dont care really what someone says to attempt to justify the symbol. I find Cain's "Brown Pride" offensive should he be forced to cover it up? No.

Here in America we allow people the freedom to be douchebags and thats how it should be. He is free to believe anything he wants.

This was on another MMA board and I think it cuts to the heart of the argument.

Davisty69 It applies directly to defending any group being persecuted. The meaning is the same, no matter what it was originally applied to. Persecution is persecution. And the point of the article is that every group needs to be defended or Tyranny will rule everyone. Therefore, I defend a racists right to free speech/expression, because I want to keep my rights to free speech/expression.


I also think its quit ignorant to think the nazi's cornered the market on genocide, if we "should all be ashamed of what happened" Then we should be disgusted with ourselves now because right this second genocide is continuing to be carried out in other country's. People speak out about the Nazi's because it makes them feel good but hardly ever do they actually DO anything about the atrocity itself or get off there ass and make sure it stops and never happens again, and that is what we really should be ashamed of.

Davisty69 also quoted this poem and I think it has deep meaning in defending the rights of others even though you dont agee with their belief,

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out -- Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out -- Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out -- Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me -- and there was no one left to speak for me
__________________
Rush
9/3/09 11:10:39PM
I said it previously in the thread and I will say it again.


Freedom of "speech" only goes so far. If it is classified as promoting hate it then becomes defined as a crime (at least in Canada).

I found this site to be interesting in clearing some things up.

Hate defined

It mostly goes into hate on the internet, but it can be applied to any public display of promoting hate.


So I actually think the question should be, are this guy's tattoos promoting hate? (regardless of when he got them and/or what he says he feels)

IMO, the combination of

1) A Nazi flag. If anyone thinks that this is use of the swastika in any other form, they are kidding themselves. The title of the original article should actually say that the tattoo is a Nazi flag, which would be more accurate.
2) the words "born to hate"
3) white pride

should be sufficient enough to define this as hate propaganda. If you logged on and went to a site that contained that combination of text and graphics (and only those three), what would you think?

That being said, by law, he should be banned from fighting publicly until he permanently covers/removes at least 1) and 3).
slapshot
9/4/09 1:54:33AM
I dont care if you are promoting purple turds, in this country you have the right to express it. Anything else would leave your right up to inturpertation as you are showing now and that means your, mine or anyone else's right to expression can be suppressed.
Rush
9/4/09 9:22:18AM

Posted by slapshot

I dont care if you are promoting purple turds, in this country you have the right to express it. Anything else would leave your right up to inturpertation as you are showing now and that means your, mine or anyone else's right to expression can be suppressed.



Your arguement really comes off as either stubborness or naivety.

I hate to be the one that breaks it to you, but your so called freedoms and rights of speech/expression (in the black and white sense that you are discussing) are an illusion, anywhere in the "free" world. I could cite several examples, both legally and anecdotally to back up my argument.

And yes you can look it up, there are limitations and exceptions to your first amendment.

Jackelope
9/4/09 10:29:36AM





I also think its quit ignorant to think the nazi's cornered the market on genocide, if we "should all be ashamed of what happened" Then we should be disgusted with ourselves now because right this second genocide is continuing to be carried out in other country's. People speak out about the Nazi's because it makes them feel good but hardly ever do they actually DO anything about the atrocity itself or get off there ass and make sure it stops and never happens again, and that is what we really should be ashamed of.



I've risked my life time and time again fighting against oppressive regimes/terrorist organizations. So that statement doesn't apply to me. Before anyone spouts off about their opinion on either the Iraq or Afghanistan war and whether or not Iraqi people or Afghani people are being oppressed do your homework on a site without an agenda. I'm not going to sit here and justify things you believe but have never seen by wasting my time trying to convince you of the truth in images that are burned into mine and my buddy's minds. I'm not going to post images on this website of decapitated heads in bags or children who were executed at point blank range.

I can see how you'd think you're making sense, but I honestly urge you to visit these places. It takes on a whole new meaning when you experience the dead silence of Normandy beach or catch what you think might be a faint whiff of burnt bodies on Auschwitz. It sounds like I'm exaggerating, but I promise you it will change your life. When I said we should be ashamed of these moments in human history I don't mean we should feel blame for something we didn't do, I mean we should keep in mind what horrible atrocities humans are capable of committing, and as a result of that we should strive to be a better people and stand firm in the face of something like the Nazi symbol. When we see someone with a Nazi symbol tattooed on their arm we should not support him in any one way or another. He can keep his rights, his freedom of speech and his nazi symbol on his arm, but he can also stay jobless and hungry. Why support that kind of ignorance?

I'm all for freedoms, and I've done my part to support them and stop oppressive regimes, but as far as I'm concerned Nazi affiliation should be an illegal one. I wouldn't support somebody wearing an Al-Qaeda tattoo either. For that matter I am not a big fan of Cain Velasquez's brown pride tattoo either. I grew up and live in the southwest, so I know plenty fine what that is all about.

EDIT: By the way, tell these guys that he's got the right to wear a Nazi symbol on his arm
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AchillesHeel
9/4/09 11:04:23AM

Posted by Rush

Freedom of "speech" only goes so far. If it is classified as promoting hate it then becomes defined as a crime (at least in Canada).


In the United States, it's a little more cloudy. In Virginia v. Black, et al (2003), U.S. Supreme Court Justice O'Connor wrote,

"The protections the First Amendment affords speech and expressive conduct are not absolute. This Court has long recognized that the government may regulate certain categories of expression consistent with the Constitution. [...]the First Amendment permits a State to ban "true threats," [...]which encompass those statements where the speaker means to communicate a serious expression of an intent to commit an act of unlawful violence to a particular individual or group of individuals. The speaker need not actually intend to carry out the threat. Rather, a prohibition on true threats protects individuals from the fear of violence and the disruption that fear engenders, as well as from the possibility that the threatened violence will occur."

It's an ongoing debate. Here in the U.S. we have the added complication of the rights and responsibilities of our different levels of government. I don't know whether or not that's a concern in Canada or any other democratic country. I guess the judicial authority wielded by the separate courts of the United Kingdom has been a side-story of the release of Abdelbaset Ali Mohmet al-Megrahi by Scotland, but I don't know whether the UK has a "Supreme Court" or what it's function might be.
AchillesHeel
9/4/09 11:14:55AM

Posted by Jackelope

By the way, tell these guys that he's got the right to wear a Nazi symbol on his arm


What hasn't been fully established, at least in this country (the U.S.), is whether he has the right to brandish the symbol in view of others. In other countries, it's been established that he can't. If he tried to take an MMA match in Germany, for example, I think he would have to cover the tattoo. And if the German athletic commission didn't authorize whatever method he used to cover it (for example, if they don't allow male fighters to wear tee-shirts), he would essentially be barred from participating in sanctioned matches.

In the US, a Jewish MMA fighter (or anyone representing a group subject to violence by Nazis) might have standing for charging him with assault, as ironic as that sounds.
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